Basic pistol technique question

[Surf]

I like to use high-speed video :

I like to use video also.

I have no competitive training partners, or people available to fit my schedule to really coach me at a level that can make for good improvements. Therefore 99% or so of my training is done solo, outside of tactical training that is. Because of this I heavily rely on video in an attempt to analyze my own style and self coach which is a bit difficult at times. Because of this, I find video to be a great tool, not just for myself but for others I teach as well. It is always good to actually let them see for themselves what is happening and what we are trying to correct. Like they say a picture paints a thousand words, but video is a novel, or something like that.

Anyway, I got to thinking more about how far I lock out, if at all. So what did I do? Shot a video of course. This is about how my technique looks. I am pretty well at full extension but I am not in an uncomfortable lockout. I pretty much rely on my body mass to take the recoil right down my center line and act as the shock absorber instead of the bent arms. I have tried to keep a slight bend, but I find I am much more accurate at speed with a more consistent point of aim that I get from a full extension, especially with the first shot from the draw. Not saying this is THE way, but it does seem to work best for me.

I know that I am not setting any speed records but the full speed shots in the video are good for about 7-10 yards while maintaining consistent combat accuracy (8" circle). Any faster and I am not gonna hold that accuracy. Sorry about the face thing. I am one ugly mofo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLQU6GtQZKk

Oh, I would love to see it in high speed video.

[RSA-OTC]

I'm not totally sold on any reloading technique that locates the weapon in front of your face and thus obscuring your vision of the threat. I have been playing with a lower position that allows me an un-obscured view of the threat area while still keeping my weapon in my peripheral vision to help with the reload. My gun arms right elbow makes contact with my torso thus stabilizing the gun hand and indexing the shooting arm and gun to the same place each time.

Also I stress to my students the need to scan for more threats and not fixate on the current target when not actually engaging that target. As Clint Smith is fond of saying "Wolves travel in packs".

[John_Wayne777]

Not saying this is THE way, but it does seem to work best for me.

This is, I believe, the key to the universe. I've had the opportunity to watch a lot of very high level shooters do things and I've discovered that there is a great deal of individuality in how they tackle the problem due to a wide range of factors including physiology, training, experience, and background.

Once you start looking at extremely skilled shooters it becomes apparent that there are many ways to skin this cat and get the desired results that shooters spontaneously develop as they become more skilled. Some methods may be scientifically inferior if you measured them in a lab...but the range is a lot different than the lab.

[John_Wayne777]

I'm not totally sold on any reloading technique that locates the weapon in front of your face and thus obscuring your vision of the threat.

I would reframe the argument like this:

I'm not sold on any reload technique that locates the weapon away from the spot where you are most likely to successfully accomplish the reload.

As a means of explanation, consider the following:

In a fight, why are you performing a speed reload? Generally because you were trying to kill someone and your gun stopped going boom. That most likely means that there is still an ongoing threat to deal with. Given that we are at handgun distances, what is the most important task in the world for you at this particular moment?

My answer would be: Getting that gun up and running again.

Therefore I'm willing to trade a second of looking at the threat while my gun is empty to ensure that I can resume putting bullets into his anatomy as I feel that this a superior survival technique to staring him down with an empty gun that I'm struggling to reload.

[C4IGrant]

I'm not totally sold on any reloading technique that locates the weapon in front of your face and thus obscuring your vision of the threat. I have been playing with a lower position that allows me an un-obscured view of the threat area while still keeping my weapon in my peripheral vision to help with the reload. My gun arms right elbow makes contact with my torso thus stabilizing the gun hand and indexing the shooting arm and gun to the same place each time.

Also I stress to my students the need to scan for more threats and not fixate on the current target when not actually engaging that target. As Clint Smith is fond of saying "Wolves travel in packs".

You can see the threat through the triggerguard. The main reason though to keep your pistol about head high is because of the speed. If you think about it, you have your gun in front of your face, then you are going to bring it back and lower it. Reload and push the weapon back up and out. This is a waste of motion.

As far as being able to see the threat, I will go out on a limb and say that you are most likely MOVING for cover or offline as you are reloading.


C4

[Failure2Stop]

I'm not totally sold on any reloading technique that locates the weapon in front of your face and thus obscuring your vision of the threat. I have been playing with a lower position that allows me an un-obscured view of the threat area while still keeping my weapon in my peripheral vision to help with the reload. My gun arms right elbow makes contact with my torso thus stabilizing the gun hand and indexing the shooting arm and gun to the same place each time.

If you are blocking your vision, you are doing it wrong.
The gun does not need to be directly in front of your eyes, blocking your field of vision, rather, it is simply placed in the line of sight with the threat/threat area. Placing the gun there allows you to momentarily shift vision from the threat/threat area to the magwell as the magazine is inserted, while still keeping the threat in close peripheral vision. The eye shift lasts for less than 1/2 second and movement will still be apparent. It keeps the head up and eyes forward.

Let's look at the disadvantages of dropping the gun:
The gun will be pointed, unaimed at normal human height.
If something goes wrong with the reload, focus will bring the head down, and vision will tunnelize on the gun and ground, away from the threat area.
The movement from belt to magwell will be inefficient and awkward, especially at combat relevant speed.

Just my experience.

[RWK]

It's apparent that modern doctrine supports the use of an isosceles style. For those who use that style, when you drive the pistol forward, do you fully straighten both arms outward or leave them 'bent'?

On your reloads, do you keep the gun up and on target, or pull back slightly into a 'workspace'?

I extend my arms without locking them. While reloading, I bring the gun back to an index position in front of, and slightly below the level of my chin.

Do you also change your visual focus to your weapon during the reload, or use your peripheral vision while keeping your eyes on the target?

My focus goes to the pistol during the insertion of the magazine into the well.

When drawing your pistol, who favors driving the pistol straight towards the target( a-la Jeff Cooper), and who rotates it up and pointed at the target, and then drives it forward (a-la Clint Smith)?

I bring it up, just below the level of my chin and under my dominant eye, then press it forward.

If you are blocking your vision, you are doing it wrong.
The gun does not need to be directly in front of your eyes, blocking your field of vision, rather, it is simply placed in the line of sight with the threat/threat area. Placing the gun there allows you to momentarily shift vision from the threat/threat area to the magwell as the magazine is inserted, while still keeping the threat in close peripheral vision. The eye shift lasts for less than 1/2 second and movement will still be apparent. It keeps the head up and eyes forward.

Let's look at the disadvantages of dropping the gun:
The gun will be pointed, unaimed at normal human height.
If something goes wrong with the reload, focus will bring the head down, and vision will tunnelize on the gun and ground, away from the threat area.
The movement from belt to magwell will be inefficient and awkward, especially at combat relevant speed.

Just my experience.

What he said...

[NCPatrolAR]

If you are blocking your vision, you are doing it wrong.
The gun does not need to be directly in front of your eyes, blocking your field of vision, rather, it is simply placed in the line of sight with the threat/threat area. Placing the gun there allows you to momentarily shift vision from the threat/threat area to the magwell as the magazine is inserted, while still keeping the threat in close peripheral vision. The eye shift lasts for less than 1/2 second and movement will still be apparent. It keeps the head up and eyes forward.

Let's look at the disadvantages of dropping the gun:
The gun will be pointed, unaimed at normal human height.
If something goes wrong with the reload, focus will bring the head down, and vision will tunnelize on the gun and ground, away from the threat area.
The movement from belt to magwell will be inefficient and awkward, especially at combat relevant speed.

Just my experience.

You just saved me a great deal of typing.

[NCPatrolAR]

I like to use video also.

I have no competitive training partners, or people available to fit my schedule to really coach me at a level that can make for good improvements. Therefore 99% or so of my training is done solo, outside of tactical training that is. Because of this I heavily rely on video in an attempt to analyze my own style and self coach which is a bit difficult at times. Because of this, I find video to be a great tool, not just for myself but for others I teach as well. It is always good to actually let them see for themselves what is happening and what we are trying to correct. Like they say a picture paints a thousand words, but video is a novel, or something like that.

Anyway, I got to thinking more about how far I lock out, if at all. So what did I do? Shot a video of course. This is about how my technique looks. I am pretty well at full extension but I am not in an uncomfortable lockout. I pretty much rely on my body mass to take the recoil right down my center line and act as the shock absorber instead of the bent arms. I have tried to keep a slight bend, but I find I am much more accurate at speed with a more consistent point of aim that I get from a full extension, especially with the first shot from the draw. Not saying this is THE way, but it does seem to work best for me.

I know that I am not setting any speed records but the full speed shots in the video are good for about 7-10 yards while maintaining consistent combat accuracy (8" circle). Any faster and I am not gonna hold that accuracy. Sorry about the face thing. I am one ugly mofo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLQU6GtQZKk

Oh, I would love to see it in high speed video.

Looking at your view; it appears your arms are in what I call a slightly bent position.


Nice mask btw

[NCPatrolAR]

My gun arms right elbow makes contact with my torso thus stabilizing the gun hand and indexing the shooting arm and gun to the same place each time.

Bringing the arm in this far is wasted motion. By bringing the gun in this far, you are spending more time bringing the gun in to your reference point and then back out to your shooting position. It is better to bring the gun into your workspace, keeping it about 8" in front of your face. This position is just as repeatable as the torso touch and is faster to move in and out of.