Showing form 4 on request/demand

[erik_]

The ATF's investigator's handle a lot of the "busy" work like doing FFL inspections, FFL/SOT interviews, etc.

I would be SHOCKED if you ran into one at a range and they asked to see your FORM 4.

Since you are shooting at a private range, they can ask to see just about anything. You have the right to not show it to them, but they also have the right to tell you to leave.



C4

If "investigators" are nothing more than ATF agents then it's odd that they essentially list them twice in the handbook. But, I digress. Uncle Sugar doesn't always make sense when it comes to nomenclature and definitions.

For the record, I'm personally not worried about this topic. I simply brought up points of discussion and quoted the handbook where applicable. If my credentials aren't good enough, I always have a copy of my stamped paperwork ready to go.

[markm]

I don't even think about my forms at all anymore. I should get them all shrunk down and laminated and put on a ring some time.

[PRGGodfather]

When it comes to having to "show my papers," compliance with LE is often part of the licensing or permitting scheme. Accordingly, any important papers (like firearms registrations or permits on letterhead) can be shrunk down to 25% and laminated at Kinko's.

With all 4 copies cut from an 8.5 x11" piece of paper, I put a laminated copy in the hard case, the soft case, the range bag and the briefcase...

[QuietShootr]

Just make a copy and shrink it down real small then laminate it so old RO's can barely read it.

This is what I do. Mine are all wallet-size and laminated. Anyone over 40 isn't going to be able to read the thing without a magnifying class.

[dbrowne1]

Name a state where it isn't a crime to own an unregistered NFA item. After all, it's the National Firearms Act and is covered by Federal law under all 50 States. If Local and State LEOs know their stuff, they can arrest based on suspicion, jam you up in the system, and work out the details later.

The safest practice is to have a copy of your stamped paperwork and be prepared to show it when asked by LEOs or anyone with reasonable authority in your current location (such as range officials).

Yes, no shit it's a NFA violation in every state. You've completely missed my point, however. There is a commonly held view that only ATF agents (or other federal agents) may demand to see it, whereas state/local LE cannot because it's a federal law that they don't enforce.

My point - if you actually read my post in response to yours - is that there are separate state laws that say a SBR/SBS/Suppressor/etc. are unlawful to possess unless the possessor has properly registered it under the NFA. That is the source of authority for the state/local LEO to demand to see the Form. If you don't produce it, they'll arrest you and charge you under the state law, just as they do for things like drug charges that are also federal crimes.

[erik_]

I understand that some states have their own laws on these items. My point was that one should produce a copy of their NFA paperwork regardless of state laws. City/state LEOs have every right to ask for paperwork on any questionable firearms, even if their city/state doesn't have specific ordinances/laws on NFA items.

With that said, if someone lives in city/state that has specific ordinances/laws on NFA items then the individual has even more reason to carry a copy of their NFA paperwork.

[LockenLoad]

yes sir officer, I have my paper work right here, comply with the law 43 years old, never heard of anything productive coming from arguing with any LEO our refusing their demands unless they are violating your rights, not the case here.

[glocktogo]

We run a practical rifle match locally and allow suppressed and FA firearms to be used. We do however request to see a copy of their form prior to allowing it in the match. We don't hold copies and so long as the person's name, serial # of the item and the stamp are visible, we don't care if the rest is redacted. Once you've shown it, we don't ask for it each time.

It has nothing at all to do with knowing what you have or not being friendly to NFA toys. It has everything to do with the protection of the match and it's venue. As has been pointed out, not every NFA regulated item brought to ranges is registered. We should police our own ranks so that Uncle Sugar doesn't get wind of illegal activity and do it for us. While I have no doubt that some ranges have a beef with NFA stuff, not all of them do.

I'll show my forms to any Commissioned LEO or any range official. I will not allow anyone to hold copies while I shoot. That's over the line IMO. YMMV

[chadbag]

Back when I had my M-11 we were shooting on private property in NH (with permission but the property owner was not there). Someone calls in the machine gun fire in the woods and up pulls a cruiser. Guy asked what we were doing. I showed him the Form 4. He apologized and said someone had phoned it in and started asking all sorts of questions about the M-11 and other stuff we had there -- all legal of course.

My poor M-11 had to be sold though to pay rent after the dot-com crash :-(

[Stickman]

yes sir officer, I have my paper work right here, comply with the law 43 years old, never heard of anything productive coming from arguing with any LEO our refusing their demands unless they are violating your rights, not the case here.

Not arguing tends to work out best in almost every case. I have given people breaks that you would swear no cop would ever do, and they certainly weren't for people who wanted to argue.

When it comes to NFA, most LEO who ask aren't going to be up to date on everything. LEO in general, myself included, tend to deal with a certain group of calls, and be most familiar with them. For the area I work, bank robbery, assault, stolen vehicle, stabbing, drive by shooting, dope, domestics, and similar calls are all routine, and none of the guys who have been on for very long think of these as a big deal.

The amount of times spent on real crime is MUCH MUCH higher than it is on firearm or possible firearm violations. Taking a weapon off a gang member isn't a firearm violation in my point of view, its a stolen firearm, and shouldn't be confused with regular firearm or NFA items. LEO are good with stolen firearms, we see those on a regular basis as well.


The same LEO that handles the above calls on a regular basis isn't going to see NFA very often, and most of the laws for the feds, state, county, city or town are going to restrict NFA weapons without the proper paperwork. What the LEO is going to remember is that these are restricted items, and will investigate from there.

Something else to think about, the vast majority of the time that cops are stopping someone, its because somebody has called in a complaint. There is a high percentage of calls that are embellished by the caller, and some that are flat out lies. Keep in the back of your mind that someone may have called you in because they don't like you, are ignorant, or are afraid of all firearms.