Showing form 4 on request/demand

[Kimbo]

I do always keep a copy with me just in case I run into an ATF agent. If it's Law enforcement I'll show but I was just wondering about the Village Idiot who works at the gun range. I just don't want people knowing where I live, especially if I have cool toys you know?

[rob_s]

Though, you better have a badge and the ability to arrest me if you expect to see it.

I realize from other pictures you have posted that you don't appear to have to deal with this, but would you leave the range or present and get to shoot if asked by the range employees?

[dbrowne1]

If you run into an ATF agent, you must be able to show proof of legal registration. A photocopy is acceptable. The big question, however, is how they define "investigator" since this likely includes LE, any Federal agent with the power to arrest, and could include other groups as well. Unfortunately I don't know how "investigator" is specifically defined.

Many states have their own laws that make it a crime to possess a SBR, SBS, suppressor, etc. unless it is properly registered via the NFA. If you live in one of those states, a state or local LE officer could very well demand to see your form and arrest you under the state law if you don't have it.

[RogerinTPA]

My range has a rule that the customer must show they have their paper work for NFA firearms. They RO's ( most are retired or reserve LEOs and armed) will ask, as was the case last Sunday, when an RO asked a guy on 3 separate occasions to see it. 1st he said he'll dig it out, 2nd, it's in here some where, digging around in his range bag and gun case, then the 3rd, "It's probably in my car" while packing up his gear and leaving, never to return... The owner said that although he allows full auto fire and rents FA weapons, there has been quite a few instances where the weapon has been illegally modified by the local Good Ole boys.

On another range where full auto isn't allowed, one guy's AR went full auto, in what he claimed was a semi auto AR. When the ROs swarmed his position and asked WTF, he claimed the sear must have broken , he then packed up and left in a hurry.

[erik_]

Many states have their own laws that make it a crime to possess a SBR, SBS, suppressor, etc. unless it is properly registered via the NFA. If you live in one of those states, a state or local LE officer could very well demand to see your form and arrest you under the state law if you don't have it.

Name a state where it isn't a crime to own an unregistered NFA item. After all, it's the National Firearms Act and is covered by Federal law under all 50 States. If Local and State LEOs know their stuff, they can arrest based on suspicion, jam you up in the system, and work out the details later.

The safest practice is to have a copy of your stamped paperwork and be prepared to show it when asked by LEOs or anyone with reasonable authority in your current location (such as range officials).

[Iraqgunz]

Name a state where it isn't a crime to own an unregistered NFA item. After all, it's the National Firearms Act and is covered by Federal law under all 50 States. If Local and State LEOs know their stuff, they can arrest based on suspicion, jam you up in the system, and work out the details later.

The safest practice is to have a copy of your stamped paperwork and be prepared to show it when asked by LEOs or anyone with reasonable authority in your current location (such as range officials).

Range officials don't qualify as someone with reasonable authority in my book. I went shooting at a range a few weeks back down in Tucson and no one asked me about my toys at all. Another option may be a photocopy which is redacted that only shows what someone needs to see.

[ST911]

Range operators and the like may require you to produce paperwork as a condition of use. Other regs (NFA handbook reference) may specify that it must be shown to BATFE personnel on demand, but that doesn't bar others from requesting it. This is analogous to a sporting venue searching your bag on entry. You can assert your rights, but be denied use.

Such a procedure isn't necessarily a bad idea for the range operator. There may be an insurance or RM requirement to do so.

State and local governments may demand that you produce your NFA forms under applicable state statutes. You should expect that failure to do so will most likely result in confiscation of that arm until such time as you do. A PC arrest may or may not occur as well. For those inclined to post something about litigation that would follow, save it.

Keep your paperwork with you. Produce it upon demand of a legal officical. Determine in advance if you will do so to use facilities that may require it.

[C4IGrant]

From the NFA Handbook:

Section 12.1 Maintaining proof of registration. The NFA requires that a person possessing a firearm registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR) retain proof of registration which must be made available to the Attorney General, specifically an ATF agent or investigator, upon request. Proof of registration would be on a Form 1 registering a firearm to its maker, Form 2 registering a firearm to an importer or manufacturer, or a Form 3, 4, or 5 showing registration of a firearm to a transferee.

Section 6.4 Approval of Form 1. Non-FFL/SOT’s may seek approval to manufacture an NFA firearm (e.g., short-barreled rifles, short-barreled, shotguns, wallet guns, etc.) via submission of an ATF Form 1. Upon receipt of the completed Form 1, ATF will process the application and, if approved, a tax stamp will be affixed to the original of the form and the approved application will be returned to the applicant. Approval by ATF will effect registration of the firearm to the applicant. Upon receipt of the approved application, the applicant may make the firearm described on the approved Form 1. The approved form must be retained by the applicant and made available at all times for inspection by ATF officers or investigators.

If you run into an ATF agent, you must be able to show proof of legal registration. A photocopy is acceptable. The big question, however, is how they define "investigator" since this likely includes LE, any Federal agent with the power to arrest, and could include other groups as well. Unfortunately I don't know how "investigator" is specifically defined.

The ATF's investigator's handle a lot of the "busy" work like doing FFL inspections, FFL/SOT interviews, etc.

I would be SHOCKED if you ran into one at a range and they asked to see your FORM 4.

Since you are shooting at a private range, they can ask to see just about anything. You have the right to not show it to them, but they also have the right to tell you to leave.



C4

[Iraqgunz]

ST,

I agree with your post. If any LEO state, local or otherwise who has the ability to slap cuffs on me asks for my paperwork he/she will see it.

Range operators and the like may require you to produce paperwork as a condition of use. Other regs (NFA handbook reference) may specify that it must be shown to BATFE personnel on demand, but that doesn't bar others from requesting it. This is analogous to a sporting venue searching your bag on entry. You can assert your rights, but be denied use.

Such a procedure isn't necessarily a bad idea for the range operator. There may be an insurance or RM requirement to do so.

State and local governments may demand that you produce your NFA forms under applicable state statutes. You should expect that failure to do so will most likely result in confiscation of that arm until such time as you do. A PC arrest may or may not occur as well. For those inclined to post something about litigation that would follow, save it.

Keep your paperwork with you. Produce it upon demand of a legal officical. Determine in advance if you will do so to use facilities that may require it.

[LockenLoad]

Range operators and the like may require you to produce paperwork as a condition of use. Other regs (NFA handbook reference) may specify that it must be shown to BATFE personnel on demand, but that doesn't bar others from requesting it. This is analogous to a sporting venue searching your bag on entry. You can assert your rights, but be denied use.

Such a procedure isn't necessarily a bad idea for the range operator. There may be an insurance or RM requirement to do so.

State and local governments may demand that you produce your NFA forms under applicable state statutes. You should expect that failure to do so will most likely result in confiscation of that arm until such time as you do. A PC arrest may or may not occur as well. For those inclined to post something about litigation that would follow, save it.

Keep your paperwork with you. Produce it upon demand of a legal officical. Determine in advance if you will do so to use facilities that may require it.

Well said I agree