Great basic Marksmanship training

[markm]

I keep hearing good stuff about these shoots. I'm going to have to attend one.

Did you just run ARs?

[Ed L.]

While the marksmanship aspect may be good, a lot of their manipulation aspects is not in keeping with modern practices of running a carbine. They teach using a tight sling that ties up the support arm and doing all loading of magazines into the gun with the strong arm--thus removing the firing grip. To their credit, I don't believe that they hail themselves as teaching modern use of modern style weapons for the battlefield. Their emphasis is on long range marksmanship training and getting America back in touch with their heritage as rifleman.

It's a fun time nonetheless, and a lot of the shooting is done at reduced size targets at 25 yards, where a .22 rifle will suffice. This is great from convenience and cost saving.

[markm]

While the marksmanship aspect may be good, a lot of their manipulation aspects is not in keeping with modern practices of running a carbine. They teach using a tight sling that ties up the support arm and doing all loading of magazines into the gun with the strong arm--thus removing the firing grip. To their credit, I don't believe that they hail themselves as teaching modern use of modern style weapons for the battlefield. Their emphasis is on long range marksmanship training and getting America back in touch with their heritage as rifleman.

That's not too big of an issue.

It's a fun time nonetheless, and a lot of the shooting is done at reduced size targets at 25 yards, where a .22 rifle will suffice. This is great from convenience and cost saving.

That doesn't sound too useful for someone already reasonably proficient at 3 and 4 hundred yards.

[Ed L.]

The idea of the 25 yard range with proportionately reduced targets is for the sake of convenience because there are more locations available that offer 400 yards and there is less time spent walking back and forth to 400 yards. Also it allows use of .22 ammo and rifles for cost saving and greater availability.

The program is designed to allow access to the average person and first time attendee.

Regardless of what the location can accommodate, a good deal of shooting is done at 25 yards.

Just for clarification, I am not in any way affiliated with the Appleseed program. I just attended one time, but I know something about it.

[bkb0000]

i was going to take my wife to one here about three months ago, till i found out it was 25m only. probably still would have been somewhat beneficial for the BRM, but not worth blowing 16 hours out of a weekend.

i guess a local golf course was all they could get to host the shoot.. but the golf course was like 2 miles from one of Oregun's best ranges, furthering the gayness.

it is super cheap- i think it was $75 for two 8 hour days, and the wife was free for not having a dick.

[glocker21]

http://www.appleseedinfo.org


As the Montana State Coordinator for Appleseed (MT@appleseedinfo.org), I want to jump in here and make a couple comments. This is not intended to start a flame war.

That's not too big of an issue.

That doesn't sound too useful for someone already reasonably proficient at 3 and 4 hundred yards.

Montana is chock full of "great white hunters" as are many states. We are also (said with tongue firmly planted in cheek) have the single largest population of "Marine snipers in Vietnam" of any state...I am fairly certain of that. Yet when I or any other Appleseeder invites them to a shoot low and behold if they are not human after all.

All I am trying to say is this...Slinging up and shouldering a battle rifle no matter what caliber and shooting at distance is MUCH different that running a carbine in MOUT or CQB.

"reason that we shot 25 meters with reduced targets is so that you don't have a huge amount of time eaten up with walking 100 plus meters after each round. You get to practice after you've been coached. AND definitely there IS COACHING GOING ON! Its not rag tag either. The instructors made the rounds and sometimes even joined me in the prone position to watch for flinches and such.
I have to totally agree

"For the guy who is "reasonably" proficient at 3-400 meters, I wasn't even close before taking this class, when I left, 9 out of 10 shots at 400. And I know that I'll be able to repeat this at any time because the teach the basics and I'll keep practicing too. And if the zombies come at me, I'll be happy to pick them off at 400, 300 and 200 meters. But if they get to 25 meters, I reckon I can shoot them there too... "<--nothing truer ever said

"While we shot .22lr, there was someone shooting an SKS, AR's are welcome and I wish I had brought mine just to put a few rounds down range. But after shooting 600 plus rounds myself, .223 would have priced me out of the weekend. (I don't have a mega budget like some of you guys! ) "<--True again

"Its a volunteer program, its low budget price wise but first rate instruction and the people were some of the nicest folks on the planet." <-- Spot on

Our process of using one target that has representations of a standard MOA target at different distances and then using a rifle (Ruger 10/22 is most popular, Garand being second, M1a being third) to work on core basic skills (NPOA, NPOI, 6 steps to firing a shot, follow through, subtending the front sight, calling your shot, etc ad nauseum) to be a better shot at distance

"As far as NRA Instructor quals, that's entirely different from Coaching quals. Instructor means you can sign off on a Boy Scout merit badge, LOL." <--If you look at our Instructor In Training/ Instructor program compared to NRA, we have more Instructor to shooter ratio than just about any other program.

MANY of our Instructors travel around the Country on their own dime many times to get to shoots and get knowledge dumps to shooters.

Our safety program is second to none. We have Line Safety Officers sprinkled amongst the shooters and Range Safety Officers at each end of the firing line PLUS in our safety briefing we tell teh shooters that ALL shooters on the line are safety officers because the can make sure they are being safe

"For those that think it is "below them", that is fine, but remember that it's just training and you will probably learn a few things from it.

I think the biggest positive is that it get's the untrained out of the house and shooting at a reasonable price. " <-- could not have said it better myself

"the appleseed's purpose is to teach traditional BRM... long shots with irons. that's traditionally how Americans have trained, and it's worked really well for us in the past. i'm sure you've read just as many accounts of American infantrymen picking off targets at extended ranges, thereby keeping the enemy from even getting within their own effective range, as i have. just because our current military operations don't call for extended open sight shooting doesn't mean it isn't a valuable skill to have." <-- Absolutely correct

In an Appleseed shoot we do high round count shooting AND we through in history lessons about the days leading up to the beginning of the revolutionary war and the opening days of the same.

We are NOT militia, we are NOT anti government, we are NOT subversive, we are NOT right wing fanatics.

We are Shooting coaches, history teachers, mentors, educators...most importantly we are AMERICANS

For more information about Appleseed in your state, contact your Appleseed Coordinator at State initials @Appleseedinfo.org. OR contact me at my email ( mt@appleseedinfo.org) and I will get you in contact with the right people for your state.

Glocker21 sends

[Telecomtodd]

THAT'S the information I was looking for, many thanks.

[Ash Hess]

I attended an Appleseed before I deployed on the recommendation of a good fred of mine. He is US Army Sniper qualified and an avid Appleseed instructor. No, it wasn't a Carbine course. No, it wasn't "modern" techniques. It was straight up, uncool, 25 meter iron sight shooting. I told to myself this will be a nice easy weekend of shooting to mearly get used to my new Leupold scope on the LT mount before I deploy with it. I can shoot "expert" every time at 25 meters. no big deal.
Yep, I was wrong. it is nice to get back to the basics with guys that are teaching the basics. They are watching for NPOA and flinching. "Dragging wood" was my favorite. First time I heard it I thought "what a moron, there's no wood on this here AR"
It is pure BRM. The fundamentals. and we all know CQB, CQD, SRM, whatever you wanna call it is ARM. Whats wrong with some basics. Ok, so they like Chicken wings and slings. If your skill set will suffer due to a chicken wing for a weekend, well, you need more practice.

Just for some food for thought, an Army SSG just trained a certain states National Guard Designated Marksmen using slightly modified Appleseed techniques. The DM's went from shooting Minute of Milk jug groups to a 90% hit rate at 600meters with M4's. No match ammo either.

[dbrowne1]

While the marksmanship aspect may be good, a lot of their manipulation aspects is not in keeping with modern practices of running a carbine. They teach using a tight sling that ties up the support arm and doing all loading of magazines into the gun with the strong arm--thus removing the firing grip. To their credit, I don't believe that they hail themselves as teaching modern use of modern style weapons for the battlefield. Their emphasis is on long range marksmanship training and getting America back in touch with their heritage as rifleman.

It's a fun time nonetheless, and a lot of the shooting is done at reduced size targets at 25 yards, where a .22 rifle will suffice. This is great from convenience and cost saving.

I did one of these this past weekend. I only did the first day where they do all of the actual instruction. Its purpose is to teach basic rifle marksmanship, not manipulation and running a carbine. Sometimes people here get stuck in too small of a bubble and think that if it isn't high speed, running a carbine type training, then it's bad. This is a good step back to basics of good marksmanship that will carry over into whatever else you shoot, however you shoot it. You can throw out the sling and whatever else doesn't fit in with your normal techniques. I learned a few little things about body position that improved my prone shooting even without a sling.

It was a good refresher on CMP-type shooting and it was good to refocus on basics of a good shot. I used a 10/22 with tech sights that performed flawlessly. The 25 meter range works fine and you're shooting at some pretty small targets - it's not as easy as it looks. We did the reduded size AQT three times. I shot a rifleman (expert) score on the first two, then blew the last stage on the third one after shooting great on the other three stages. Just fatigued I guess, but it shows that it's not a "gimme" even at "only" 25 meters.

[Telecomtodd]

This Appleseed project may be a good program, but what happened to shooters who should have gone through an NRA program? My club is working with 65 youngsters 10-20 years old and teaching them position shooting (prone, sitting, kneeling, offhand). We also have a Women on Target class where they can learn shooting basics, and then take a formal class if desired.

I'm sure shooting at 300, 400, and 500 yards is fun, but I'd be more interested in seeing people shoot reliably and accurately. Unless they are looking to go to sniper school or interested in long range target shooting, there's no compelling reason to shoot at those distances other than to brag you can do it. Even 25 meters is a bit long; you'll have about 4" of drop with a .22 at that distance, and wind becomes a factor.

In some of the pictures I saw online, I didn't see anyone really coaching - just a rag-tag group of folks with guns trying to hit a target. I could be totally wrong, but while I guess that could simply be a fun shooting day, there's little sense of accomplishment; I'd rather have the accomplishment of having learned something and proven to yourself (and others) that you can indeed shoot well, and shoot well on demand.

Give me any mouth-breather with an IQ over 85 and I'll have him bench-shooting 5 rounds of .22 (with aperture sights) into one hole at 50 feet within 30 minutes. Give me the same mouth-breather with a sling in prone position and I'll have him shooting the same way in another 30 minutes. Give me an AR with aperture sights and another 30 minutes and he'll be doing the same at 50 yards. The real test is if he can come back in a week and do the same thing with only 10 minutes of practice. Can it be done? Hell, I've done it close to 15 times with new shooters this year alone. And yes, I'd love to have Lee Ermey come shoot with us, I might be able to teach that ol' boy to shoot something other than those poor defenseless watermelons at 20 feet!

And women shoot better than men 80% of the time. My own 18 year old daughter, 98 pounds soaking wet, is finishing up her NRA 4P quals after only 6 trips to the range. 10 more targets and she'll finish Expert and begin working on her Distinguished Expert. She's just as good with a service rifle, a shotgun, and her/my Walther P22 pistol, but has found her niche in precision smallbore rifle.

I don't know why this Appleseed program needs long range; a 100 yard range should do the job well, and there's more of those than there are 300-1000 yard ranges, at least out East.

I strongly believe in the theorum that everyone who wants to own a firearm needs simple training on how to shoot it properly and regular practice. This is not a safety class, but an operations class. Any yahoo with a clean record can go buy a long gun, but just shooting in the general direction of a target is like a 40 year old virgin hooking up with a streetwalker - he THINKS he knows what he is doing, but CAN he hit the target reliably and accurately. This ain't a carbine class.

Bring me a former Boy Scout who qualified in my rifle merit badge class and I'll show you a PFC or butter bar who earned his marksmanship badge early.