Shotgun vs AR for HD (inside the house).

[flenna]

$200 stamp for this piece.

Ok, that is a good way to finish off this thread. Mods- lock it down.

[Harpoon]

Wood bats are 1800s technology and they break. Aluminum alloy is the modern technology.

[Defaultmp3]

What single AR round hits like 4 .36 caliber pellets @1225 fps?
That's a .410 by the way, you know a little kids gun.

Maybe something subsonic? Typical 5.56×45mm has way more energy than any .410.

Depends on where the hits are. It's possible that 4 spread out hits with 000 buck has a better chance to hit vital organs than 1 hit with a 223/556 rifle.

Why are you trying to hit vital organs instead of stopping the fight?

[markm]

Why are you trying to hit vital organs instead of stopping the fight?

The better question is why would he hunt birds inside the house?? That's got to be illegal. Plus the drywall repairs and such. Feathers and shit all over the place... it's just dumb all the way around.

(TRANSFER THIS THREAD TO ARFCOM where retards use bird guns and lock the ARs up for safe keeping)

[Harpoon]

I never said I would use a 410 for HD. I asked a simple question that no one seems to be able to answer. Instead some want to be defensive and adversarial.
I wonder why that is?

[Inkslinger]

.223/5.56 defensive rounds > .410 000.

[Harpoon]

.223/5.56 defensive rounds > .410 000.

Do you feel that .223/5.56 > 12 ga buckshot? I use 2 3/4" #1 buckshot, that's 16 .30 caliber pellets at 1250 fps per shot. At HD range every pellet is likely to hit the intruder.

[Inkslinger]

Do you feel that .223/5.56 > 12 ga buckshot? I use 2 3/4" #1 buckshot, that's 16 .30 caliber pellets at 1250 fps per shot. At HD range every pellet is likely to hit the intruder.

The 12g by sheer volume alone will probably cause more damage. Some of that damage (from over penetration) could be to things you’re trying to protect. It’s been stated multiple times on this forum and this thread, that there’s a host of other factors in firearms/ammunition selection for home defense. At this point I’ll assume you’re a troll due to your myopic focus on one of these factors.

[B Cart]

I never said I would use a 410 for HD. I asked a simple question that no one seems to be able to answer. Instead some want to be defensive and adversarial.
I wonder why that is?

What answer are you looking for? Do you want everyone to be like, "holy crap, you're right! .410 buckshot is the real deal and i'm going to ditch my HD AR for a shotgun!! Shotguns are so superior ballistically at close range! Who knew?" ??

Shotgun vs AR for HD has been discussed adnauseum on the interwebs, and the affects of rifle caliber damage and energy on target is well documented. Everyone knows that shotguns, especially 12 gauge, are DEVASTATING at close range with good ammo. Literally nobody is debating that. But there is a lot more that goes into home defense and gunfighting than just single-shot damage capability. Things like recoil, ammo capacity, ease of reloading, split times, and maneuverability, are all important components in a gunfight, and areas where an AR beats out a shotgun all day.

And don't get me wrong, I love my 1301 Tactical, and wouldn't hesitate to grab it for home defense, and i'd rather get shot by a rifle than 12 gauge buckshot at close range. But I still grab my rifle over shotgun every time when i hear a bump in the night.

[26 Inf]

I never said I would use a 410 for HD. I asked a simple question that no one seems to be able to answer. Instead some want to be defensive and adversarial.
I wonder why that is?

Just cruising through, but I'll take a stab at answering your question.

Your initial posts and follow-ups sound like you have already made your mind up/have an agenda:

What single AR round hits like 4 .36 caliber pellets @1225 fps?
That's a .410 by the way, you know a little kids gun.

And, from that mention of .410 it is understandable that folks think that is what you are talking about. I want to make a couple of points:

First off, I feel that the decision whether to use an AR or a 12ga shotgun for HD is largely a matter of choice and proficiency. It is my opinion that it is easier to train to realistic HD proficiency with an AR, than it is with a shotgun.

At inside the home distances, buckshot doesn't have much spread, so the precision needed for an immediately incapacitating stop isn't appreciably different with either the AR or the shotgun, so that's a wash.

I think where I would begin to edge toward the shotgun is what those pellets do upon impact. You started with 000B, so let's stay with that. You have eight wound channels, at inside HD ranges probably varying from quarter-sized to hand with spread fingers-sized dependent on range and manufacturer. At HD ranges these rounds have enough energy to penetrate into the chest cavity and damage the heart and lungs to the point that physical (versus psychological) incapacitation, while not instantaneous, will occur within seconds. The 5.56/.223 projectile doesn't do as much apparent initial damage, but inside the body the projectiles velocity is such that hydrostatic shock will tear a larger, permanent wound cavity in any soft tissue it transits - heart and lungs. If the projectile traverses the heart, it is likely to cause that organ to immediately cease function, resulting in the same type incapacitation as the shotgun. Neither of these is an immediate, guaranteed shutdown.

For immediate shutdown, the spinal cord needs to be severed/bruised/damaged at or above the fourth cervical vertebrae. With proper point of aim, either the shotgun or the AR is capable of achieving this shutdown, but the velocity of the AR projectile gives it a little more 'slop' factor IMO - a hit through the eye orbit that misses the brain stem is still going to shut things down.

In terms of multiple assailants, IMO the shotgun doesn't loss as much edge as many folks think. With proper follow-through transition to additional targets isn't appreciably slower. Faster splits on trigger with an AR doesn't necessary equate to faster hits on the second target for the HD shooter of average proficiency.

For me, noise is also a factor, unsuppressed the 16" AR puts out 165+db; the shotgun puts out around three to four decibels less, which is enough to be noticed, although it is still in the dangerous range. Suppressed the AR should be in the neighborhood of 135 to 145db, which although not hearing safe, is substantial better than the unsuppressed AR or shotgun.

So, TLR - I'd make the choice based on my perceived abilities with either firearm and whether my AR was surpressed.

Second point, in the formula for kinetic energy, velocity is squared. this means as velocity doubles, energy is quadrupled. So, lets run the math:

OOB = 4x66gr=264gr x (1225x1225=) 1,500.625 = 396,165,000/450240 = 879.897 ft-lbs

5.56 - 55gr x (2900x2900=) 8,410,00 = 462,550,000/450240 = 1,027.34 ft-lbs

Answer to your question: a 5.56 round at 2900fps.