.223 62gr Fusion MSR vs 5.56mm 77gr Black Hills TMK

[Ned Christiansen]

Hey Ned,

Do you do factory gel tests with Vista (or any other manufacturer), or do you do them on your own? I have a new range guy I am breaking in and would love to get him to a ballistics gel test demonstration.

We do it as part of a five-day (LE) Patrol Rifle class... been doing them twice a season for over twenty years, our instructor who does it went to Federal for the training on how-to, many years ago.

This year, we skipped it for the first 5-day.... not sure about the next one. I hope we don't drop it from the program.

[prepare]

I've trending towards everything you posted. I'm moving from 11.5 to a 14.5 Home D gun and would like to enjoy the reliability of .223 pressure ammo again. (the longer barrel will make up velocity)

My only concern is POI shift. I just have to test/confirm, then dedicate a carbine to a 62gr zero if needed.

In my experience the POI shift is very minimal but like you said you still have to check and confirm.

[BufordTJustice]

Pardon my perspective, but what's the fascination and hard-on for barrier-blind bullets?

How often do you practice shooting through walls, glass, large kitchen appliances, furniture, landscaping, and cars? A lot of folks will never practice shooting past 200 yards, ever -- so why match bullets?

If you think it's a big enough / likely / dangerous threat, why not go with a 6.5 or 308?

Seriously -- not meaning to rustle jimmies, but -- why?

It's actually a good question, with a simple answer IMHO:

If your attacker has *ANY* tactics at all, they will air-mail you a few rounds and then move to cover/concealment. This utilization of cover/concealment could even be while they are still advancing toward you.

With this in play, and me not having a 2am mental map of the studs in my walls, I want a barrier blind round that will not deviate significantly from its intended trajectory while it may be forced to traverse an intermediate media. Two pieces of drywall should be fine for most ammo, but throw even a glancing strike on a timber or metal stud and the game instantly changes.


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[sinister]

It's actually a good question, with a simple answer IMHO:

If your attacker has *ANY* tactics at all, they will air-mail you a few rounds and then move to cover/concealment. This utilization of cover/concealment could even be while they are still advancing toward you.

With this in play, and me not having a 2am mental map of the studs in my walls, I want a barrier blind round that will not deviate significantly from its intended trajectory while it may be forced to traverse an intermediate media. Two pieces of drywall should be fine for most ammo, but throw even a glancing strike on a timber or metal stud and the game instantly changes.

That's probably the best, honest explanantion I've ever had anyone offer.

I'm not against shooting through walls and doors (despite not seeing my target or what's behind it) in a combat role -- which usually starts a "Lack of positive ID / collateral damage" purse-swinging immediate argument drill.

[1168]

It's actually a good question, with a simple answer IMHO:

If your attacker has *ANY* tactics at all, they will air-mail you a few rounds and then move to cover/concealment. This utilization of cover/concealment could even be while they are still advancing toward you.

With this in play, and me not having a 2am mental map of the studs in my walls, I want a barrier blind round that will not deviate significantly from its intended trajectory while it may be forced to traverse an intermediate media. Two pieces of drywall should be fine for most ammo, but throw even a glancing strike on a timber or metal stud and the game instantly changes.


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Man, you’re not kidding. Studs and drywall can act strangely, and there are often 2 studs at the edge of a doorway. What’s odd is that I’ve tested shooting through 2x4s and even 4 wide, 5.56 blows through them like paper, but in real life, bullets absolutely sometimes deviate at that edge of a door. Tactically, that can be used similarly to “stacking pillars” on a car, and one can luck out. Its one of the reasons I’m so into Fusion and Gold Dot.

[BufordTJustice]

That's probably the best, honest explanantion I've ever had anyone offer.

I'm not against shooting through walls and doors (despite not seeing my target or what's behind it) in a combat role -- which usually starts a "Lack of positive ID / collateral damage" purse-swinging immediate argument drill.

Yeah, imagine in a force-on-force scenario....you start sending little blue sim-pills toward your opponent in a given scenario; they shoot back, move, or both. If they move, it's likely to take advantage of cover/concealment if its near. Which, in a residential structure, is going to be a doorframe, alcove, etc. I.e. some type of corner-reinforcement like a stud, framing, or dooorjamb.


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[BufordTJustice]

Man, you’re not kidding. Studs and drywall can act strangely, and there are often 2 studs at the edge of a doorway. What’s odd is that I’ve tested shooting through 2x4s and even 4 wide, 5.56 blows through them like paper, but in real life, bullets absolutely sometimes deviate at that edge of a door. Tactically, that can be used similarly to “stacking pillars” on a car, and one can luck out. Its one of the reasons I’m so into Fusion and Gold Dot.

Yep, and just like with auto glass, angle of incidence plays a HUGE role here. The projectile can be induced to tumble end-over, or can still be spin stabilized enough to tear through, front first. No way to really know. Having to worry about the entire projectile vaporizing within said barrier is an entirely additional set of concerns that barrier blind users don't have to worry about *as much*.


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[ABNAK]

I think if you were going to "hedge your bets" to cover most scenarios then a good barrier-blind round would be where to place your money. No one bullet is perfect, but sometimes with a little compromise in both the expansion as well as penetration categories you can come up with one that does both quite well.

[Todd.K]

Pardon my perspective, but what's the fascination and hard-on for barrier-blind bullets?

How often do you practice shooting through walls, glass, large kitchen appliances, furniture, landscaping, and cars?

LE have a more obvious need for windshield penetration, but bullets that do well against windshields also perform well in heavy bone tests.

LE also drives the majority of terminal ballistics testing, so if I want to use something well tested it’s probably barrier blind.

I think you may be equating barrier blind too much with armor piercing. It’s more about consistent performance, even if something gets in the way.

Expanding bullets generally expand more consistently than fragmenting bullets fragment. Especially at the lower end of the size that can fragment and still meet penetration requirements, like 5.56 sized.

[prepare]

If over penetration is a concern then a non barrier blind design may be what you want.