.223 62gr Fusion MSR vs 5.56mm 77gr Black Hills TMK

[sinister]

Pardon my perspective, but what's the fascination and hard-on for barrier-blind bullets?

How often do you practice shooting through walls, glass, large kitchen appliances, furniture, landscaping, and cars? A lot of folks will never practice shooting past 200 yards, ever -- so why match bullets?

If you think it's a big enough / likely / dangerous threat, why not go with a 6.5 or 308?

Seriously -- not meaning to rustle jimmies, but -- why?

[markm]

Pardon my perspective, but what's the fascination and hard-on for barrier-blind bullets?

How often do you practice shooting through walls, glass, large kitchen appliances, furniture, landscaping, and cars?

For me, just once. That was enough to see how poorly non-bonded bullets do through glass. Shooting through home or auto glass is enough of a possibility for a city dweller to have the better bullet.

A lot of folks will never practice shooting past 200 yards, ever -- so why match bullets?

If you mean the TMK referred to in the title, it fragments gloriously. It's a long range bullet, but happens to be a good CQB projectile in my opinion.

If you think it's a big enough / likely / dangerous threat, why not go with a 6.5 or 308?

Some crazies just might to that. But to me, the AR-10 family in both calibers is too heavy and too unreliable for defensive stuff. You want a few hundred yards of distance between yourself and the enemy to allow for malf clearing.

[ABNAK]

Pardon my perspective, but what's the fascination and hard-on for barrier-blind bullets?

How often do you practice shooting through walls, glass, large kitchen appliances, furniture, landscaping, and cars? A lot of folks will never practice shooting past 200 yards, ever -- so why match bullets?

If you think it's a big enough / likely / dangerous threat, why not go with a 6.5 or 308?

Seriously -- not meaning to rustle jimmies, but -- why?

Because I am heavily invested in 5.56/.223, both weapon-wise as well as ammo. I like to think of things in a "worse case scenario". If it's gonna likely be 5.56/.223 that I'm shooting, what gives the best combination of terminal performance AND barrier penetration. It's not always gonna be home defense; maybe if we have a repeat of the "Summer of Love" I may need to rely on more than a Glock in my vehicle should miscreants block roads (I work in a city, live in the sticks) and I have to hoof it. Again, worse case type of thinking. I'd rather not need that performance but still have it, as opposed to needing it and not having it.


As far as .308 goes, I only have two, both M-14 clones, so I'm not seeing myself packing those long-azz biotches in a vehicle. Maybe a nice addition for a bug-out SHTF scenario, but not really a "throw it in the truck" weapon.


Like some of our other esteemed BTDT members, what's your opinion?

[MegademiC]

Pardon my perspective, but what's the fascination and hard-on for barrier-blind bullets?

How often do you practice shooting through walls, glass, large kitchen appliances, furniture, landscaping, and cars? A lot of folks will never practice shooting past 200 yards, ever -- so why match bullets?

If you think it's a big enough / likely / dangerous threat, why not go with a 6.5 or 308?

Seriously -- not meaning to rustle jimmies, but -- why?

For me, it covers all the bases well, jack of all trades. The fusion specifically is accurate enough for any realistic scenario, performs well through anything 556 can defeat and offers good terminal performance. It covers more bases than anything else in a lightweight gun.

Upping the cartrige requires tradeoffs I dont want, fusions tradeoff is money, which isnt an issue for me.

Backup is match grade handloads, I practice to 700 regularly.

[BufordTJustice]

Pardon my perspective, but what's the fascination and hard-on for barrier-blind bullets?

How often do you practice shooting through walls, glass, large kitchen appliances, furniture, landscaping, and cars? A lot of folks will never practice shooting past 200 yards, ever -- so why match bullets?

If you think it's a big enough / likely / dangerous threat, why not go with a 6.5 or 308?

Seriously -- not meaning to rustle jimmies, but -- why?

It's actually a good question, with a simple answer IMHO:

If your attacker has *ANY* tactics at all, they will air-mail you a few rounds and then move to cover/concealment. This utilization of cover/concealment could even be while they are still advancing toward you.

With this in play, and me not having a 2am mental map of the studs in my walls, I want a barrier blind round that will not deviate significantly from its intended trajectory while it may be forced to traverse an intermediate media. Two pieces of drywall should be fine for most ammo, but throw even a glancing strike on a timber or metal stud and the game instantly changes.


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[sinister]

It's actually a good question, with a simple answer IMHO:

If your attacker has *ANY* tactics at all, they will air-mail you a few rounds and then move to cover/concealment. This utilization of cover/concealment could even be while they are still advancing toward you.

With this in play, and me not having a 2am mental map of the studs in my walls, I want a barrier blind round that will not deviate significantly from its intended trajectory while it may be forced to traverse an intermediate media. Two pieces of drywall should be fine for most ammo, but throw even a glancing strike on a timber or metal stud and the game instantly changes.

That's probably the best, honest explanantion I've ever had anyone offer.

I'm not against shooting through walls and doors (despite not seeing my target or what's behind it) in a combat role -- which usually starts a "Lack of positive ID / collateral damage" purse-swinging immediate argument drill.

[prepare]

I've trending towards everything you posted. I'm moving from 11.5 to a 14.5 Home D gun and would like to enjoy the reliability of .223 pressure ammo again. (the longer barrel will make up velocity)

My only concern is POI shift. I just have to test/confirm, then dedicate a carbine to a 62gr zero if needed.

In my experience the POI shift is very minimal but like you said you still have to check and confirm.

[BufordTJustice]

One is "barrier blind" but at a .223 velocity. The other is not and runs at 5.56mm NATO pressures.

I know the usual choice is "get both" but if you had to pick one for slightly-more-than-home-defense purposes, which would it be?

Comes down to barrel length IMHO. I prefer barrier blind, but if you're under 16", a 5.56 TMK load is formidable. If you're 16" or longer, go Fusion MSR.

I personally run 5.56 pressure Barnes 70gr TSX (Brown tip) in my 11.5" suppressed shorty, and Hornady 70gr GMX TAP 5.56 pressure in my Knights 16" mod2 SR15. Each pairing is at or below MOA. Both loads are *highly* effective on feral hogs up to 362lbs from my 11.5", in my experience.

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[Disciple]

Comes down to barrel length IMHO. I prefer barrier blind, but if you're under 16", a 5.56 TMK load is formidable. If you're 16" or longer, go Fusion MSR.

That seems backward from most suggestions I've seen: bonded for closer-range guns and SMK/TMK for longer range. Why do you reverse this?

[BufordTJustice]

That seems backward from most suggestions I've seen: bonded for closer-range guns and SMK/TMK for longer range. Why do you reverse this?

Velocity is king with shorties. The TMK will be going quickly enough to fragment out to 100-125 yds if you get the full-boat 5.56 loading. Within that range, it will be quite deadly.

Fusion is a solid round; the Fusion bullets use a softer (lower antimony) lead alloy than the Gold Dots. This gives better expansion at further distances but can result in over-expansion in close shots. Gold Dots have a slightly higher expansion velocity, but are GTG from muzzle to MPB range.

My Preference is to get a 5.56 64gr loading for GDSP (if Vista/ATK even makes them any more). Then a 62gr TBBC 5.56 (XM556FBIT3 FBI load). Black Hills 50gr Water Resistant TSX.

Or, my fav, the heavier (and loaded VERY hot) mono-coppers like GMX and TSX 70gr. I haven't yet had either fail to deliver MOA in any of my guns. They bring the goods from coyotes up to big hogs, even from short barrels. They are both moving faster than most 62gr SP loadings from the same barrel length, yet show zero pressure signs (and 100% function) in any of my guns. Frankly they don't even feel as hot as 62gr NATO 5.56 Frontier.

But, I will concede that I have seen some chrono results from others that reflect Fusion MSR to be loaded hotter than standard Fusion if the same bullet weight. Basically, at the top of SAAMI spec for .223 Rem. A stout 5.56 loading will net you another 150-200 fps, all else being equal (bullet weight/density, case cap, etc).


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