Army picks SIG to produce Next Generation Squad Weapon

[screechjet]

Yeah, I heard the same scary story. Did you ever see any estimate on what percentage of enemy troops are using the armor? Or a comparison of what 855A1 does to it? I never saw either. I haven't heard anything about UKR troops not being able to defeat RUS armor at the individual level.

I'd tend agree, the need for individual soldier lethality has been overcome by events to need more lethal and passive protection from sensors (Protection is weight) and indirect fire and sensor capability (new weapons are weight.)

Was the intelligence assessment reasonable 10+ years ago when the initial idea of armor globally outpacing our weapons was real, and the idea of "Increase individual soldier lethality" became these weapons and rounds? I think it was reasonable, but I also thought at the time and still do that their might be better ways to get there. There was lots of experimentation that was driving the analysis however. It wasn't entirely a justification exercise. The data was both the Chinese and Russians were within ten years be able to field weapons and armor that put our troops at disadvantage. Guess what, it wasn't just ground combat weapons, but families of missiles, improved armor, drones, EW etc. that both countries were R&Ding and trying to field.

However, one thing to keep in mind is the power of Branch within the Army to push ideas and concepts that benefit the Branch potentially at the risk of other ground combat priorities. The various branches have LOTS of power in the institutional Army.

[Echo40]

I find it strange that people still insist that Russia is a legitimate threat to the US, packing state-of-the-art body armor, when if anything the War in Ukraine has shown them to have in incredibly weak, poorly outfitted, incompetent military.

Honestly, they can't even successfully take over a smaller, weaker, less capable nation, and I find it hard to believe that they're fielding some incredible new body armor capable of stopping M855A1 when they're facing an army that doesn't even have ammunition that good at defeating body armor.

So unless they're really holding back against Ukraine and are deliberately trying to trick NATO forces into underestimating them by feigning weakness, they're not a threat at all. If you want to say that China has some advanced body armor in the works, then that I can believe, but Russia? Based on what, I might ask?

[Wake27]

I find it strange that people still insist that Russia is a legitimate threat to the US, packing state-of-the-art body armor, when if anything the War in Ukraine has shown them to have in incredibly weak, poorly outfitted, incompetent military.

Honestly, they can't even successfully take over a smaller, weaker, less capable nation, and I find it hard to believe that they're fielding some incredible new body armor capable of stopping M855A1 when they're facing an army that doesn't even have ammunition that good at defeating body armor.

So unless they're really holding back against Ukraine and are deliberately trying to trick NATO forces into underestimating them by feigning weakness, they're not a threat at all. If you want to say that China has some advanced body armor in the works, then that I can believe, but Russia? Based on what, I might ask?

This is a dangerous line of thought. Sure, it hasn’t been impressive, but Russia has had tremendous stamina for hundreds of years. They may not be as powerful as we’ve feared, but there’s an argument that they’re just getting started. Plus, they haven’t just been fighting UKR.


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[SteyrAUG]

This is a dangerous line of thought. Sure, it hasn’t been impressive, but Russia has had tremendous stamina for hundreds of years. They may not be as powerful as we’ve feared, but there’s an argument that they’re just getting started. Plus, they haven’t just been fighting UKR.


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Would only add that Putin is going out of his way to not appear the oppressor as much as possible. And it is one thing to mess with his grand plan, but if you threaten his political security it would probably get ugly fast. Russia has a capable AF that they don't seem to be using. Russia has a capable navy that they don't seem to be using. It doesn't look like he's unleashed special forces units, his SOP is to outsource this shit as much as possible so he can claim it isn't him doing it. We should also remember he's has slightly more nuclear weapons than anyone according to last estimates.

[Wake27]

Would only add that Putin is going out of his way to not appear the oppressor as much as possible. And it is one thing to mess with his grand plan, but if you threaten his political security it would probably get ugly fast. Russia has a capable AF that they don't seem to be using. Russia has a capable navy that they don't seem to be using. It doesn't look like he's unleashed special forces units, his SOP is to outsource this shit as much as possible so he can claim it isn't him doing it. We should also remember he's has slightly more nuclear weapons than anyone according to last estimates.

Yeah I'd agree with a lot of that.

From https://www.congress.gov/118/meeting...D-20240313.pdf:

For examples about how conflict drives adaptation, consider that the lifecycle of a radio in Ukraine is only about 3 months before it needs to be reprogrammed or swapped out as the Russians optimize their electronic warfare against it. The peak efficiency of a new weapon system is only about 2 weeks before countermeasures emerge. As another example of superior weapons systems handicapped by lack of software adaptability, consider that Excalibur precision artillery rounds initially had a 70% efficiency rate hitting targets when first used in Ukraine. However, after 6 weeks, efficiency declined to only 6% as the Russians adapted their electronic warfare systems to counter it.

[Wake27]

Will it be any worse than a WW2 battalion with a mix of Caliber .30, Caliber (boxed or M1906 clips for the BAR), Caliber .30 (belted), Caliber .30 (M1 clips) .30 Carbine, and Caliber .45?

Here’s what happens when you try to use 1944 logistics in 2024.

https://x.com/osinttechnical/status/...705143369?s=46


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[Diamondback]

Here’s what happens when you try to use 1944 logistics in 2024.

https://x.com/osinttechnical/status/...705143369?s=46


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Yeah, 1944 logistics was problematic even in 1944! Frankly, with the lack of raw materials, industrial capacity, merchant shipping and manpower we couldn't fire up the Red Ball Express again if we HAD to as a matter of national survival...

[mack7.62]

You know those rifles the 101'st are getting, well they cost over $5,400 each, low powered ammo and blanks, over $3 round, that new super round over $21 round and that wonderful new scope that turns every Joe into a sniper over $12,000. Sure serial production will bring prices down but by how much? The 277 Fury load should not cost more than M80 but it's not going to perform better than M80 either, the super round is going to be reserved for combat so train with one ammo and combat with another, not smart. Justification for all this, defeating LVL 4 body armor at 500 meters, how often is the average joe going to need this capability?Plus that whole NATO interchangeability thing has proven quite useful, the money wasted on this boondoggle would have been much better spend on anti drone shotguns and defenses. You know someone should address that whole defeat body armor threat, so a lvl 4 plate is 10x12 inches or so, good to know that $12,000 day optic will allow joe to hit that at 500 meters instead of wasting that $21 bullet on hitting a arm, leg, stomach or head.

US Army allocates record budget for NGSW Next Generation Squad Weapons in 2025.

https://www.armyrecognition.com/news...eapons-in-2025

The detailed allocations within the NGSW project include $23.133 million for the acquisition of 1,772 units of the M250 Automatic Rifle (NGSW-AR), which is intended to replace the currently employed M249 Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW) within the Close Combat Force. Additionally, $91.447 million is set aside for the purchase of 18,019 units of the M7 Rifle (NGSW-R), aiming to supplant the M4A1 Carbine in the same operational capacity. The budget also includes a considerable sum of $252.712 million for the procurement of 20,045 units of the M157 Fire Control systems, which are expected to be integrated with the M7 Rifle and the M250 Automatic Rifle to enhance combat effectiveness.

[mack7.62]

double tap

[HKGuns]

So, what you are saying is the .MIL is in on it too, not just the Agencies, the House and Senate. I saw his rant and if his numbers are correct, it is just going to hasten the decline.

Hopefully @sinister can pop in and refute or confirm that information. Seems plausible on the surface, but you never know.