Let's Talk About "Accuracy"

[Benito]

Great write up. That was actually kind of profound.

[SOW_0331]

Jack, excellent work here. As an 0331 we used mils constantly, especially after MGLC and the Division Schools. Besides breaking off a few weak Marines, we learned those values. Mils, meters, mil radians, all that fun stuff. Later having a HOG as my spotter with a 240B in a fixed position, we could make some music.

One of the biggest takeaways from this is those four target pictures. We actually used those same images and descriptions in training people to machine using our new 5 Axis Mills. In weapons training, I've had more success explaining it the way you have.

*Accuracy* is a reflection of your "input" variables. In this case it could be ammo load data, performance based on anticipated trajectory, dope and wind call, etc. The shooter must know these inputs and figure them as a mathematical formula before pulling the trigger.

*Precision* is a reflection of the shooter applying fundamental "controls" (to borrow machining terms). Breathing control, loading bipods, foot placement. A good shooter can run a checklist, starting from the tip of his toes to the end of his fingers and top of his head.

If the controls are not consistent, or not set at the base that the inputs were measured from, your end results will not match the projected performance. For those with a manufacturing background, you can apply SPC to your shooting when you get your numbers.

When I started getting hazed frequently by my HOG TL, I learned how much math can go into shooting someone and living to tell about it. And that's the first time I wished I hadn't spent all my schooling chasing ass...

[hotrodder636]

Excellent post, puts things into perspective, including your best friend's sister!

[P2000]

Great post, I'm especially interested to learn more about shift. This thread has some overlap with an old thread I started. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...-ES&highlight=

Another advantage of using AMR/ATC is that as the number of shots in a group increase, the ATC value becomes closer and closer to the true ATC, without having a bias of being too large or too small.

However, as the number of shots in a group increase, the Extreme Spread tends to slowly open up more and more.

I'm a fan of 10 shot groups, because probability will trick you into thinking there is a pattern or correlation when there is not one.

[sneakypete]

how accurate is considered to be enough?

[whilst]

well, I sure as aitch expect better than 3" at 25 yds, standing unsupported, even from a pistol, much less a carbine. I might settle for 2" at 50 yds, given iron sights and old eyes, with a decent trigger job in a good AR, with good ammo. A lot of the cheap ammo won't group a lot better than that, from the bench and with a scope, especially not from a .30 AK.

How much accuracy is enough is up to you and your skills. I want to be able reliably hit men's heads at 200 yds, bipod and scoped, with my SBR if there's no wind or mirage. Some people want to reliably hit crows or prairie dogs at that distance.

[Kansaswoodguy]

how accurate is considered to be enough?

Depends on what your doing but from a rested aim position 1 MOA is a good rule of thumb.

[TactiCool1976]

how accurate is considered to be enough?

i did this in the Marines twice... once in boot and then again when qualifying again.. in boot i did 40 out of 40 (during rifle week) on head shots from 500 yards on a full man size target using iron sights, using a m16a2 and when i qualified again a few years later i did all head shots again from 500 yards ( just to see if i could do it again lol )

[LockenLoad]

i did this in the Marines twice... once in boot and then again when qualifying again.. in boot i did 40 out of 40 (during rifle week) on head shots from 500 yards on a full man size target using iron sights, using a m16a2 and when i qualified again a few years later i did all head shots again from 500 yards ( just to see if i could do it again lol )

damn that is good shooting

[HelloLarry]

I've been getting into carbines lately. Previously, I've always owned full-size ARs. Both of the carbines I have now are very accurate, with one being extremely accurate (under 1/2 MOA so far).

But what I find most disappointing is how much more difficult they are to shoot from field positions than the full size ARs. Offhand is especially maddening. You have to hold these small guns very hard, which makes them harder to hold still.

Accuracy is good, shootability is better.