50,000 (now 88K) rounds and counting: Springfield Operator

[DirectTo]

Ned, could you speak to the cleaning schedule or the lubricants used? Thanks for the updates!

[JohnK84]

Ned, could you speak to the cleaning schedule or the lubricants used? Thanks for the updates!

I am pretty sure that earlier in the thread Ned indicated the operator owner doesn't have a preference on any kind of lubricants other than what was within arm's reach while performing maintenance. It is also my understanding that the gentleman runs his gun hard but does perform regular maintenance on it. Ned can correct me if I am wrong. I could be mixing this thread up with the high mileage Colt and also with some other high mileage threads

[Wildcat]

"In very-high-mileage 1911's I see pitting on the breechface in a circular pattern that matches the primer diameter. These are guns with tens of thousands of rounds through them. I take this to be flame cutting from primer leakage, would you agree? Is it priming compound doing it, or from powder ignition? I'm guessing the primer is the culprit since it seems like the primer ought to obturate once we have ignition. Agree?

Also, am I being accurate when I say priming compounds are brisant?

The mixtures that are used to make primers do contain some primary explosive that would be described as brisant, however, that quality alone is not what is leads to the pock marking that describes an arc the size of a primer.

In my experience, this comes from a primer cup failure somewhere along the area where the wall of the primer cup transitions into the flat face of the primer. A small hole forms in the primer cup in that radius and allows the escaping gas from the cartridge to exit the form of a tiny jet of flame, which mars the breech face.
Note that when a firing pin pierces a primer, the same type of jet can attack the firing pin.

Simply having loose primer pockets won't really focus the flame like the pin-hole failure and rarely results in damage to the gun.

The primer cup failure seems to be due to the construction of the brass used for the cups. The hardness of the brass used for the primer cup, or the quality of the base/wall transition can be factors.

Somewhere I have a couple of pictures from such failures.

[Ned Christiansen]

As to lube-- "anything". There is no need to wring hands over what brand, etc. My bottom line is "oily, 20-to-40-ish wt". Grease is thicker than need be, WD40 is thinner than optimal but if that's all you had.... they'll work for the moment. I know a lot of people want to tout ATF as the best lube ever, I disagree but it honestly is "good enough". There are so many kinds these days, as I recently found out when a hole rusted in my transmission pan and I had to have exactly, but I mean exactly, the right type. Some are pretty toxic smelling. I know some guys are concerned about lubing with products that will sling or vaporize into something you don't want to breath or get in your eyes or even have on your hands. I agree that we need to be careful these days with what we come into contact with. That's part of the reason I guess that whatever I'm using, I'm not using it liberally.

I've used creamy sunscreen (not the oily type) and Parkay to lube an AR during one training season, with 100% good results. Way sub-par of course but they got the job done.

As to the schedule of maintenance, "as needed, or more if you like doing it".

Wildcat, thanks for the primer info, I'm trying to learn why some pit and some don't, it seems to be not just about round count. But getting info on what kind of primers are used and/ or load intensity and/or brass type, that's rare.

[Wildcat]

PrimerIssue.png
Here you can see the primers have failed along the outside of the cup base.

[Ned Christiansen]

I have sure never seen nor heard of that (which means exactly nothing) I note that they appear to maybe all be from the same batch of factory ammo....?

[Wildcat]

I have sure never seen nor heard of that (which means exactly nothing) I note that they appear to maybe all be from the same batch of factory ammo....?

They were from a batch of handloaded ball ammo, 500 rds of mixed range brass. Winchester primers. What was curious was that only the R-P brass produced these failures.

As you say, uncommon.

Edited to add:
Further thought: The brisance of primers is what causes the depression in the breech face you captured in your photos. Its one reason that Smith & Wesson uses hardened firing pin bushings in their revolvers.

[JohnK84]

Just curious if that Springfield is still in service

[kaltblitz]

Same question. I drop into this forum occasionally just for updates.

[Ned Christiansen]

The Ope3rator is still in service but I just am not in contact as much with Rob to get updates.

This on the gun from post 414 though:

I had a chance to do a detailed go-through of the gun from the “High Mileage Comes To Town” thread in last week’s Patrol Rifle class.

"High Mileage Comes to Town":

https://forum.ltwguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8365 (unfortunately, some of the pics have evaporated)

I have written much about the owner, who is a serious competitor, recently retired police Chief and a police firearms instructor of renown. He is today’s Bill Jordan / Jeff Cooper / Jack Weaver: a real, true 1911 lawman / 1911 guy through and through, not because it’s “cool”, but because that’s what he does and has always done.

First, get the barrel nice and clean inside and out so the inspection can be done…. Chore Boy copper pan scrubber on a Nylon brush. Beware the version that is steel / copper plated. Take a magnet to the store with you :shock:


The barrel was fitted so that all three lugs “pick up” some of the load. This results in a longer lasting fit and increased safety (my opinions). Also there is no “flanging” of the locking surfaces. Either they are not moving at all or sometimes flanging that does occur also gets wiped off in cycling. Jeff often comments on the accuracy. Kart barrels, whaddya gonna do.


The three-lug sharing of the load can also be seen in the slide’s locking recesses. Without machining the barrel locking lugs to match the slide, most guns will lock up on one. One of the others might be say .003 gapped from locking and the other maybe .008 or some variation of this. In .45? “good ‘nuff” but all three touch is “betterer”.


Bore looking good and is holding up well to the miles. Info as to round count is expected soon. This new top end—slide and barrel-- was completed in late 2018.


Cases are wearing their shape into the extractor, as I have seen before on this and a few other high-milers. This is the EGW extractor and it seems to be taking the punishment well. The two dots signify extractor #2 of the two provided with this rebuild. I didn’t get a chance to ask what happened to #1 but Jeff has broken more 1911 extractors than anyone I ever knew—and also shoots more rounds through the same 1911 than most people go through in a lifeltime.


Breech face topography—again! Jeff’s guns have it more than most. And a little pitting is starting around the line where the primer OD and primer pocket ID meet in a press fit. I think priming compound these days is more brisant and this is the result. I think. This breech face will soon get the stoning treatment as the bumps eventually will create an impediment to good feeding.


Slide stop notch peening. The surprise is that it peens on the back stroke, on the angled front side—seems like it wouldn’t, so much. I typically chamfer these edges a little but the round count has caught up to it…..


Pickup rail, AKA disconnector rail, is still nice and smooth:


Someone please count the dings. That times 7 will be the round count since the rebuild…..


Jeff has been known to wear out parts that no one ever thought would wear out, like a mag catch that has worn so it holds the mage maybe .015 lower and causes feeding issues on occasion. This one still looks good.


The original work on this gun is from 1996 I believe. Maybe about 2015 I welded up some cracks and the weld shows in a few areas but has never re-cracked.



Inside the magwell, a hard area to clean. In the sharp corners, some crud buildup everywhere a magazine “ain’t” but no reliability hit. My Extra Stout Plunger tube and its four bosses can be seen here.

FRAG grips on the inside. Some sooting where the frame lightening cuts are. Oops, I said FRAG, I meant ORIGINAL EFFING FRAG


I always say, the feeding profile doesn’t need a mirror finish, it needs to be dimensionally and geometrically correct. This one has a little divot low right from, I don’t know, a certain kind of mag follower I think. But it continues to work well with duty ammo and 200 grain HG 68’s.


Bowtie cut still bowtie-in’. The recoil spring guide is getting banged into the recoil abutment some—totally normal at high round counts.


Colt MIM’d sear and disconnector! They are actually—really good stuff. As with any process it can be done well, or not well. I've always had good results with these.


Welds in evidence. At that time I did not have laser welding. It was harder to get everything to blend perfectly; you could make it disappear in polishing and blasting only to have it show again after bluing. This one was blued BTW by a retired Chicago copper whose legend I learned years before I met him. A real character to be sure, with lots of stories from the old days of big city policing. Crime was less of a problem in those days. BTW as a tourist in Chicago, many, many times (but no more), I met CPD guys in the street. Before I had any affiliation with or knowledge about police. Just another stupid tourist. All of them, each and every one, treated me very well. Good times when a weekend in Chicago was fun and pretty darned safe.


That EGW extractor form, I think, ought to last longer than the standard flat blade shape, but we won't know for sure for another five years I guess. It is quite certainly easier to manufacture and that's not necessarily a bad thing for the end user. Is it softer than it should be, given the wear in the claw area? I have seen that on "regular" extractors too.

The wear on the breech face has not changed much from the 2022 pic. I'll ask as to round count in the interim but I've never known Jeff to have a lull in his shooting volume. I think it is more an issue that any kind of wear or damage, starting from new, makes itself evident quickly and then slows down sometimes almost to a stop. Example, if I take a 2X4 and swing it at another 2X4, corner to corner, it's going to leave a mark on both. If I do it again, it will get a little deeper, but in the next 100 whacks it's going to get to a point where additional damage is undetectable.... although yes, if I do it 20,000 times more there will be additional damage.