10mm or 40 S&W ?

[Fail-Safe]

You really arent in any position to tell anyone to "try to think".

Do yourself a favor stop posting, and start reading. Start with this:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Read it several times, dont skim.

[Wolf Spyder]

And no, you arent that good of a photographer. Mediocre, sure. I dont want to think about what that means about your fulltime gig. Emergency Medical Troll is it?

Do you feel better now that you got that off your chest? Good Grief.

[BuckskinJoe]

And this thread is being allowed to continue because....?

[Wolf Spyder]

Being a 10mm fan it makes me cringe when I see these thread here because they usually devolve into a pissing match in spite of some valiant efforts to the contrary.

Man I wish:
- someone would pay for some gel testing of some of the really awesome loads available for the 10mm. like a 200gr WFN Hard Cast, the 180 and 200gr XTP in excess or close to 1200fps, the 180gr gold dot at 1250fps, the 155/165 Barnes at 1300+, and the Barnes 125 at 1550fps.

-people would pay attention to the NUMEROUS hunting pics and stories of the 10mm in almost all loadings that punch thru both side of and animal leaving a moderate destruction cavity and expanding like you would expect a pistol to do, and not even magically exploding the animal in question.

-people would stop trying to make the 10mm reach rifle velocities and claim that they are under SAAMI pressures when they do it.

-people would stop claiming that all the 10mm is capable of is what Federal loads it to. It's capable of so much more and there are a few manufacturers that get it.

-people would stop comparing the 10mm to the 40. It's no more a 40S&W than the 357 mag is a 38 special. THE 10MM IS A MAGNUM PISTOL ROUND. TREAT IT AS SUCH.

-people would learn how to measure their water jug recovered bullets. the correct measurement is an AVERAGE of the widest and narrowest points. NO, your recovered bullets that look like a mangled piece of shrapnel in the shape of Jesus are not really 1.260" and they are not representative of what that bullet does at that velocity in flesh or even in gel

-stop looking at Carrier21's wax videos where the unknown variable are so great that they don't educate one to anything other than what those specific shots did in that specific media. His variable include: uncalibrated homemade wax media, Shots were not velocity tested, shots were at an unmeasured distance nor was distance recorded, "wound channels" were not precisely measured at any point to even allow an accurate comparison to each other. In short Carrier 21's "testing" done by an uneducated, 20 something sycophant of the 10mm is nothing short of useless and a joke.

-stop belittling testing done by independent testers who DO make an effort to be accurate and consistent in their testing like DRSJR1969 who does some great velocity testing of available commercial loadings in the 10mm. This fella should be applauded for adding to the community if only in the small area of "telling us how fast stuff really goes"

-people had some more discernment and critical thinking skills to tell what is valuable information and what is not. Not everything you read is worth remembering or believing. I know Journey tells you to "don't stop believing" but I'm pretty sure they were not talking about internet ballistic testing.


And to answer the OP's question (even tho it was answered already)... Do you have a need to carry a magnum pistol round for "duty"? The 10mm is a magnum round and as such comes with all the penalties and "advantages" of a magnum pistol round.

That is a great post.

Don't be too harsh on Carrier, he gave it a good try. He might not be a certified ballistician like Doc, but his work is still worth looking at. At least he used what he had to try and illustrate to others what he believed in. Hell, all I have is jugs of water... so his unscientific hill-billy back yard crap is better than what I have. That is why I have been pushing for someone to do it right.

[Wolf Spyder]

Wolf Spyder--It may come as a surprise to you, but the vast majority of wound ballistic testing is done by government entities that do not put the results up on the internet.

Ya, I know.

For example we made over 10,000 gel shots for the JSWB-IPT, but NONE of those test results have ever been made public. A lot of 10 mm tests were done back when the MP5/10 was popular--probably the most interesting and effective SMG ever made. We tested a lot of loads out of it, including Hornady 200 gr XTP at about 1200 fps, several 180 gr loads pushing 1300 fps, and some 170 gr Norma at about 1350 fps; the loads that ended up giving optimal performance (12-18" pen, approx .70" RD, 90+% RW with good intermediate barrier capability) were the 180-200 gr bonded JHP's at around 1050 fps. Oh, and you are not likely to easily find any of those tests, as they were done for government agencies that did not publish the results in open source publications...

So how do we get that information published? Or how do we get it repeated?

Until a vendor designs a new barrier blind projectile optimized for 10 mm velocities vs. 40 cal, we frankly have little interest in doing any more 10 mm tests, as few agencies use them.

Well, that is understandable. It took longer than 20 years for the .357 Magnum to catch on, maybe the 10mm will gain in popularity as it gets a little older.

[Wolf Spyder]

Start with this:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Read it several times, dont skim.

Thank you Fail-Safe, I will.

[Microalign]

[Well, that is understandable. It took longer than 20 years for the .357 Magnum to catch on, maybe the 10mm will gain in popularity as it gets a little older.

The .357magnum gained popularity during the early years of hollow point bullet designs. In those days, manufacturers in general did not understand the complexity of terminal effects science. So, they did all their testing in water tanks which of course exaggerate bullet expansion and do not give a clear measurement of penetration depth. No standards means no guarentee on caliber and ammunition performance.

Since human flesh is NOT 100% water, a hollow point bullet will expand less in tissue than it does in water. From the 1960s to the early 1990s, LE agencies, medical examiners, and doctors around the country noticed that many slower velocity calibers were not very effective at quickly incapacitating someone who was shot. This led to the great false assumption that higher velocity somehow translated into "knockdown power". The reality was that these poorly designed SP and JHP of that day would only reliably expand at the higher velocities offered by cartridges like the .357magnum. LE agencies gravitated to the correct solution available to them at the time, but they didn't have an understanding as to what the problem was to begin with. Many agencies now use slower velocity calibers with modern ammunition and have experienced great results. This is very likely why there is no carved in stone end all be all caliber to carry now days, because ammunition evolution has made all the popular service calibers more effective across the board.

Ballistic science is better understood nowdays. The .357mag became popular because it seemed to do something that the other available calibers could not do at the time. Today, with better ammunition thanks to the FBI and IWBA, there is no observable improvement in using the 10mm over standard service calibers. So, I don't see it getting more popular.