10mm or 40 S&W ?

[DocGKR]

Yup....

[tpd223]

Come-on now, which is it? Is there a temporary crush cavity or not? I wish you guys would get your stories straight.

No, there is a temporary cavity and a permanent cavity, there is no "temporary crush cavity".




I don't have access to 10% gel, so I use water. It is a poor substitute, but you use what you have... Right?

And again with the temp cavity innuendo? (Ok that was sarcasm as well)

You have a poor grasp of both wound ballistics AND sarcasm it would seem

I see a very real case of Dunning-Kruger effect in action going on here.

[Wolf Spyder]

Wow. No need to a ****ing asshole about it. There's a reason I began my sentence with "I suspect". Not to mention I do my own backyard testing with wetpack and have posted the results right here if you bothered to look. At this point you're not even bothering to have a reasonable discussion, now you are just trolling.

Dude, it is like a classic 80's football pile on... everyone wants to tell me the same thing. However, all of those people who want to pile on are repeating the same secondhand information. I'm not looking for conjecture. I'm looking for an expert like DocGKR to provide photos or you tube video of 10% gel or Sim-test media showing the effects of a 10mm Gold Dot traveling at 1400 fps.

I'm being an ass because everyone wants to tell me what they think will happen. I want to see what does happen.

Nobody denies the power and terminal effects of the 10 mm, but your assessment is not correct, and as stated before for a combat caliber there are other issues involved.

Sure they are. Several have tried to say that a factory 180 grain 40 S&W is about as good as it gets, and that a "Hot" 10mm load that has explosive expansion will likely under perform.

I am looking for proof. That is why I keep asking for DocGKR, or anyone else for that matter, to test these Underwood / Gold Dot loads in 10% gel or Sim-test media. I want to see the recovered slugs, and I want to see the gel blocks so that I can say; "Oh, I guess the 10mm is a waste of time..." or say "Hell ya, now thats a frick'n hole, my fist would fit in there!!".

[Alaskapopo]

Dude, it is like a classic 80's football pile on... everyone wants to tell me the same thing. However, all of those people who want to pile on are repeating the same secondhand information. I'm not looking for conjecture. I'm looking for an expert like DocGKR to provide photos or you tube video of 10% gel or Sim-test media showing the effects of a 10mm Gold Dot traveling at 1400 fps.

I'm being an ass because everyone wants to tell me what they think will happen. I want to see what does happen.






Sure they are. Several have tried to say that a factory 180 grain 40 S&W is about as good as it gets, and that a "Hot" 10mm load that has explosive expansion will likely under perform.

I am looking for proof. That is why I keep asking for DocGKR, or anyone else for that matter, to test these Underwood / Gold Dot loads in 10% gel or Sim-test media. I want to see the recovered slugs, and I want to see the gel blocks so that I can say; "Oh, I guess the 10mm is a waste of time..." or say "Hell ya, now thats a frick'n hole, my fist would fit in there!!".

You seem to think you have a silver bullet. Thats fine as long as you can shoot it well. A false perception that you're carrying a death ray may just well give you the confidence you need to win in a gun fight. The ballisitcs certainly won't. Personally I think the 10mm if your going to carry it for personal defense would be better when loaded with a 180 or 200 grain bullet at a moderate velocity of 1000 to 1100 fps with a bullet designed for that velocity.
Pat

[Fail-Safe]

Dude, it is like a classic 80's football pile on... everyone wants to tell me the same thing. However, all of those people who want to pile on are repeating the same secondhand information. I'm not looking for conjecture. I'm looking for an expert like DocGKR to provide photos or you tube video of 10% gel or Sim-test media showing the effects of a 10mm Gold Dot traveling at 1400 fps.

I'm being an ass because everyone wants to tell me what they think will happen. I want to see what does happen.


Sure they are. Several have tried to say that a factory 180 grain 40 S&W is about as good as it gets, and that a "Hot" 10mm load that has explosive expansion will likely under perform.

I am looking for proof. That is why I keep asking for DocGKR, or anyone else for that matter, to test these Underwood / Gold Dot loads in 10% gel or Sim-test media. I want to see the recovered slugs, and I want to see the gel blocks so that I can say; "Oh, I guess the 10mm is a waste of time..." or say "Hell ya, now thats a frick'n hole, my fist would fit in there!!".

You want the ammo tested, put up the cash. Money for the ammo, gelatin, and the time to make it and shoot it. Afterall a demanding person as yourself should have bo problem with paying.

And no, you arent that good of a photographer. Mediocre, sure. I dont want to think about what that means about your fulltime gig. Emergency Medical Troll is it?

[Wolf Spyder]

Given all the wound ballistic data that has been published over the past two decades, I am surprised regarding the continued amount of misinformation being perpetuated about this subject, especially in light of the voluminous results available from CONUS OIS incidents, as well as OCONUS combat results. Anyone who has actually taken the time to read the research (not just peruse the internet) will clearly realize that far from being the "dark ages" we are now in the "Renaissance" of wound ballistics.

The misinformation is out there because a lot of us can't find all of this published wound ballistic data that you are typing about. Where do I find all of that data? Do you have a link to those photos or Power Point slides?

It would be nice to see a given factory load and then be able view the 10% gel results, to actually see what the recovered slugs look like, and then be able to view the high speed photography.

A variety of equally important methodologies are used for terminal performance testing, including actual shooting incident reconstruction, forensic evidence analysis, and post-mortem data and/or surgical findings; properly conducted ethical animal test results; and laboratory testing—this includes the use of tissue simulants proven to have correlation with living tissue. Both diagnostic imaging (radiograph, CT, MRI) and high speed video are frequently used tools. Some individuals seem to be under the mistaken impression that one of these areas is more important than others--this is not the case, as each category provides important information to researchers.

Now see there, we are using High Speed Photography. Do you have a link to those videos?

The last decade of OCONUS military operations have provided a tremendous amount of combat derived terminal performance information. The U.S. government gathered numerous experts from a variety of disciplines, including military and law enforcement end-users, trauma surgeons, aero ballisticians, weapon and munitions engineers, and other scientific specialists to form the Joint Service Wound Ballistic Integrated Product Team to conduct a 4 year, 6 million dollar study to determine what terminal performance assessment best reflected the actual findings noted in combat the past few years. The test protocol that was found to be correct, valid, and became the agreed upon JSWB-IPT “standard” evolved from the one first developed by Dr. Fackler at LAIR in the 1980’s, promoted by the IWBA in the 1990’s, and used by most reputable wound ballistic researchers.

The JSWB-IPT, FBI BRF, AFTE, and other organizations get to assess an extensive amount of post-shooting forensic data. The whole raison d'être of these independent, non-profit organizations is to interpret and disseminate information that will help LE and military personnel more safely and effectively perform their duties and missions. Physiological damage potential is the only metric that has been shown to have any correlation with field results in actual shooting incidents, based on law enforcement autopsy findings, as well as historical and ongoing combat trauma results. In other words a damage-based metric has relevance to and accurately reflects the real world, while other measures of "lethality" and "incapacitation" are elaborate fantasy games of mathematical calculations and engineering statistics that fail to truly reflect the fact that in the gritty realm of face-to-face combat, incapacitating the enemy is about rapidly inflicting sufficient physiological damage to the enemy’s critical anatomic structures in order to stop that opponent from continuing to be a lethal threat. The FBI BRF, NSWC Crane, USMC, and USSOCOM are all using physiological damage based metrics.

Folks who choose to ignore these documented and verified facts may not like this, but based on all of this carefully collected, independently validated, real-world derived data the wounding characteristics an optimal combat/LE/personal defense rifle projectile are well known.

Ya, rifle bullets... that is an other thread. I am more intereseted in pistol bullets this week.

As the old adage states, it is hard to have a rational argument with folks who simply don't know what they don't know...

Do you know how you get past all of that? You show us the pictures and videos. Ya, it sounds silly, but when I click over to you-tube and I watch Carrier21 shoot into a Wax Tube I understand that a bigger cavity is better. When I watch DRSJR1969, TNOUTDOORS9, or TWANGnBANG I understand because I see it happen. I can compare for myself after watching videos on each load.

You have years of data... well, lets see those videos, I'll bring the popcorn.

[operator81]

This has turned into a case of "I can explain it for you but I can't understand it for you." If YouTube is where you are turning for you hard facts and scientific data then I don't think anyone here can be of any help.

[Jack-O]

Being a 10mm fan it makes me cringe when I see these thread here because they usually devolve into a pissing match in spite of some valiant efforts to the contrary.

Man I wish:
- someone would pay for some gel testing of some of the really awesome loads available for the 10mm. like a 200gr WFN Hard Cast, the 180 and 200gr XTP in excess or close to 1200fps, the 180gr gold dot at 1250fps, the 155/165 Barnes at 1300+, and the Barnes 125 at 1550fps.

-people would pay attention to the NUMEROUS hunting pics and stories of the 10mm in almost all loadings that punch thru both side of and animal leaving a moderate destruction cavity and expanding like you would expect a pistol to do, and not even magically exploding the animal in question.

-people would stop trying to make the 10mm reach rifle velocities and claim that they are under SAAMI pressures when they do it.

-people would stop claiming that all the 10mm is capable of is what Federal loads it to. It's capable of so much more and there are a few manufacturers that get it.

-people would stop comparing the 10mm to the 40. It's no more a 40S&W than the 357 mag is a 38 special. THE 10MM IS A MAGNUM PISTOL ROUND. TREAT IT AS SUCH.

-people would learn how to measure thier water jug recovered bullets. the correct measurement is an AVERAGE of the widest and narrowest points. NO, your recovered bullets that look like a mangled piece of shrapnel in the shape of Jesus are not really 1.260" and they are not representative of what that bullet does at that velocity in flesh or even in gel

-stop looking at carrier21's wax videos where the unknown variable are so great that they dont educate one to anything other than what those specific shots did in that specific media. His variable include: uncalibrated homemade wax media, Shots were not velocity tested, shots were at an unmeasured distance nor was distance recorded, "wound channels" were not prescisely measured at any point to even allow an accurate comparison to each other. In short Carrier 21's "testing" done by an uneducated, 20 something sycophant of the 10mm is nothing short of useless and a joke.

-stop belittling testing done by independent testers who DO make an effort to be accurate and consistent in their testing like DRSJR1969 who does some great velocity testing of available commercial loadings in the 10mm. This fella should be applauded for adding to the community if only in the small area of "telling us how fast stuff really goes"

-people had some more discernment and critical thinking skills to tell what is valuable information and what is not. Not everything you read is worth remembering or believing. I know Journey tells you to "dont stop believing" but I'm pretty sure they were not talking about internet ballistic testing.


And to answer the OP's question (even tho it was answered already)... Do you have a need to carry a magnum pistol round for "duty"? The 10mm is a magnum round and as such comes with all the penalties and "advantages" of a magnum pistol round.

[DocGKR]

Wolf Spyder--It may come as a surprise to you, but the vast majority of wound ballistic testing is done by government entities that do not put the results up on the internet. For example we made over 10,000 gel shots for the JSWB-IPT, but NONE of those test results have ever been made public. A lot of 10 mm tests were done back when the MP5/10 was popular--probably the most interesting and effective SMG ever made. We tested a lot of loads out of it, including Hornady 200 gr XTP at about 1200 fps, several 180 gr loads pushing 1300 fps, and some 170 gr Norma at about 1350 fps; the loads that ended up giving optimal performance (12-18" pen, approx .70" RD, 90+% RW with good intermediate barrier capability) were the 180-200 gr bonded JHP's at around 1050 fps. Oh, and you are not likely to easily find any of those tests, as they were done for government agencies that did not publish the results in open source publications... Until a vendor designs a new barrier blind projectile optimized for 10 mm velocities vs. .40 cal, we frankly have little interest in doing any more 10 mm tests, as few agencies use them.

[Wolf Spyder]

All I know from having to shoot critters in the line of duty is it matters a lot more where you hit them than what you hit them with. I bet its the same for human attackers as well.
Pat

I am sure this is something we all agree on. Shot placement is very important. However, all things being equal I would rather make that shot with the largest (ie most powerful) cartridge I possibly can.

You seem to think you have a silver bullet. Thats fine as long as you can shoot it well. A false perception that you're carrying a death ray may just well give you the confidence you need to win in a gun fight. The ballistics certainly won't. Personally I think the 10mm if your going to carry it for personal defense would be better when loaded with a 180 or 200 grain bullet at a moderate velocity of 1000 to 1100 fps with a bullet designed for that velocity.
Pat

I understand it is not a "Silver Bullet", nor is it a "Death Ray" or a "Phazer". Come on, really? We are talking about the 10mm not the .44 Mag, .460 or even the 500 Mag. Try to think of it like this. The 9mm is a proven killer of men. So why do so many folks carry the 9mm +P or even 9mm +P+? For me it seems simple, they want a more powerful cartridge. There are plenty of 10mm "Fed Lite" cartridges out there and now there are a few full power 10mm cartridges. To be honest I would think the Underwood offerings are 10mm +P.