Was there ever any proof regarding .38 Colt Long vs. .45 acp?

During or after the war in the Philippines?

We know the story: ".38 Colt Long wasnt putting the enemy down so .45 Colt and .45 acp were put / put back into service."

But then what? Were there examples of better results?

Is it all conjecture or are there verified stories / facts of better performance saving American lives?

Maybe a larger issue was one of firepower? .45 acp revolvers with half-moon clips and pouches for them and of course the 1911 with its magazine and higher capacity?

Or was the real issue that guys were using .38's engaging enemy 50 yards or more away and the real solution was getting more rifles into troops' hands?

It was my understanding that during the fighting there were a lot of close contact engagements in the jungle, but that information comes from old magazine articles, etc.

If you can dig up verifiable information, I would like to know more about what drugs enemy personnel were taking.

I went down this rabbit hole a little.

It seems Spain claimed PI, but wasn't in full control of it. They ceded it to the US after the Spanish-American war.

American decided to fully control PI and part of that was destroying all local powers / resistance and telling them how to live. As in a codified restructuring of their way of life.

The locals, especially the Muslim "Moros", had a problem with that and fought to death resisting the American invasion.

You have to wonder...what did the Average American soldier think during this? Sent to the PI islands, trying to enforce American laws on locals of low education & technology, and when they resist with suicidal attacks using guns, spears, and knives you have no choice but to shoot them with bolt-action rifles and machine guns.

I think some of the American soldiers must have felt like they were the bad guys.

I really derailed my own thread, I know.

Was the impetus of .45 acp to better put down simple tribes resisting an American invasion of their islands?

That's not a good story.

I’ve long suspected two things:

1) dudes were shooting off of horses. If you’ve never done that, its a whole ‘nother skill, and they probably just missed.

2) poor marksmanship combined with youthful egos. In many conflicts, dudes make claims of inadequate weaponry that are better explained by missing the target, or only hitting extremities. In fact, in studies of where on the body people get wounded, extremities account for the majority. Some of these other urban legends are that the .30 carbine can’t penetrate winter clothing, or that Somalis are unkillable due to khat.

And a third thing that I know, rather than suspect: pistols suck at dropping dudes, even with reasonable shot placement.

I’d be interested in reading something that could pass as evidence.

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Originally Posted by T2C

If you can dig up verifiable information, I would like to know more about what drugs enemy personnel were taking.

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What drugs are you thinking? Most of the fancy ones didn’t exist yet, and the ones that did weren’t exactly performance-enhancing.

Let common sense prevail, 38 Long Colt a lead 125 gr or 150 gr .38 cal bullet at a mv of around 780 fps vs .45 Long Colt lead 200 gr at 1,000 fps or 250 gr at 900 fps. Obvious which will be the better man stopper IMO. To this day the .45 Colt in a mid frame revolver fills a sweet spot, a good balance of portability, controlability and stopping power a 250 gr hardcast bullet at 900 fps makes a real nice woods gun.

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Originally Posted by 1168

What drugs are you thinking? Most of the fancy ones didn’t exist yet, and the ones that did weren’t exactly performance-enhancing.

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I was wondering that, too. Performance-enhancing drugs in 1902-1914?

There were pain killers, opiates. But that's gonna kill your religious fervor and homicidal rage that you need to kill the enemy.

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Originally Posted by mack7.62

Let common sense prevail, 38 Long Colt a lead 125 gr or 150 gr .38 cal bullet at a mv of around 780 fps vs .45 Long Colt lead 200 gr at 1,000 fps or 250 gr at 900 fps. Obvious which will be the better man stopper IMO.

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I’m sure you’re right, especially if capacity is equal. However, its almost always a marksmanship problem, even if we were talking about rifles, and revolver sights were terrible back then.

I’m not certain about this, but I think most of the dudes carrying revolvers would have been REMFs/POGs, Officers, Field Artillery, and Cavalry. And the Officers would maybe have been on horseback, even if not Cav. Hardly the dudes I’d expect to have a high hit percentage. They would also likely have been poorly trained by modern standards.

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Originally Posted by mack7.62

Let common sense prevail, 38 Long Colt a lead 125 gr or 150 gr .38 cal bullet at a mv of around 780 fps vs .45 Long Colt lead 200 gr at 1,000 fps or 250 gr at 900 fps. Obvious which will be the better man stopper IMO. To this day the .45 Colt in a mid frame revolver fills a sweet spot, a good balance of portability, controlability and stopping power a 250 gr hardcast bullet at 900 fps makes a real nice woods gun.

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Yes, it can only work at least a little better. Can and does.

But I was wondering if there was documentation from the period / 1st hand accounts.

I have read the same anecdotes but I don’t know if much ballistic science was done, though the fact that the .45 ACP was developed immediately after probably suggests that there was at least an Army requirement based on lessons learned. That said, I recall seeing a fair amount of anecdotes about the Vietnam era M41 .38 Special being a really ineffective round, and ballistically it’s basically a twin of the .38 Long Colt, with the only difference being FMJ vs a cast bullet.

Here you go, ballistic science of the time consisted of shooting live cattle (en-route to packing houses) as well as donated human cadavers and deceased horses. Keep in mind there were no high performance bullets, JHP's etc just lead and fmj so a bullet with more mass will be more effective and .38 Long Colt was pathetic delivering the same energy as a 380 90 grain.

https://www.ssusa.org/content/the-19...pistol-trials/

At the same time the Army was considering these questions, Capt. John T. Thompson, the man responsible for seeing to it Gatling Guns were used in Cuba during the 1898 war and the father of the subsequent Thompson sub-machine gun, began to conduct a series of tests with the assistance of Maj. Louis LaGarde of the Army's Medical Department, as to the ballistic properties needed to effectively stop an enemy dead in his tracks. After numerous field reports from the Philippines indicating that the .38 Long Colt cartridge failed to effectively stop Moro tribesmen, Thompson and LaGarde began experiments on live cattle (en-route to packing houses) as well as donated human cadavers and deceased horses. Their conclusion, delivered in March 1904, was that a .45 caliber cartridge was the most effective in dropping an opponent and therefore, should the Army consider a new service revolver or a reliable auto pistol, it would be preferable for it to adopt the new gun chambered in the powerful .45 cartridge.

And this.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/con...y-performance/

In 1899, a group of Moro tribesmen in the Philippines took umbrage toward a United States occupation force in the southern islands, thereby initiating what became known as the Moro Rebellion. The Moros were fierce fighters, with a reputation of resistance toward any outside rule. Officers in the U.S. force were armed with Colt Model 1892 revolvers chambered in .38 Long Colt, a cartridge that originated the blackpowder era. The load at the time featured a 150-grain lead round-nose bullet launched at 750 f.p.s. using smokeless powder. Muzzle energy was 201 ft.-lbs., about the same energy as a .380 ACP with a 90-grain bullet.

The Moros were reputed to tie themselves up with strips of vegetation from the jungles to prevent excessive bleeding and ingested locally made drugs to block the pain from wounds. Engagements involving the Colt double-action Model 1892 often resulted in the officer being killed or severely wounded by these motivated Moro juramentados. This prompted the War Department to launch the Thompson-LaGarde Tests of 1904. As expected, the rather grisly tests showed the .38 Long Colt significantly lacking in the power needed to stop a determined assailant. The tests determined that what was needed were the ballistics of the .45 Colt in a more compact round. Semi- and full-automatic arms were being developed, and the old .45 Colt would not function in the new pistols.

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Originally Posted by TBAR_94

I have read the same anecdotes but I don’t know if much ballistic science was done, though the fact that the .45 ACP was developed immediately after probably suggests that there was at least an Army requirement based on lessons learned. That said, I recall seeing a fair amount of anecdotes about the Vietnam era M41 .38 Special being a really ineffective round, and ballistically it’s basically a twin of the .38 Long Colt, with the only difference being FMJ vs a cast bullet.

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I think the later .38 spec was a 130 gr fmj RN. A little lighter, a little more velocity. 850 fps tops.

Still, the problem is discussed, with real stories. A solution was applied. Where is the AAR / follow-up?

I think it's a bit of a combination of several things. Fairly low powered round, determined attackers. attackers taking opiates, attackers pre applying basically tourniquets, low capacity revolvers, and the general rule that handguns can sometimes require multiple hits.

In the heat of battle your average soldier is probably not going to score goof high center mass chest shots. Between misses and marginal hits, it is likely you will need multiple rounds to stop an attacker. Add in the fact that the Moros attacked en mass, and you probably dont have enough ammo and or time to reload against multiple foes.

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Originally Posted by Ron3

Still, the problem is discussed, with real stories. A solution was applied. Where is the AAR / follow-up?

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From what Ive read, the 45 Colt also had issues. It's definitely more powerful than a 38 Colt. But it's still a pistol.

Neither 1911s or S&W and Colt 1917 45 ACP revolvers were available during the Philippine American War. Soldiers were choosing to carry single action 45 revolvers loaded with 5 rounds over double action revolvers which were much faster to load/unload/reload. That's a clue.

The first Colt automatic pistols were in 38 ACP, but the US wanted a larger caliber, due in part to the 38 Colt's reputation.

Andy

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Originally Posted by AndyLate

Soldiers were choosing to carry single action 45 revolvers loaded with 5 rounds over double action revolvers which were much faster to load/unload/reload. That's a clue.

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Perhaps. But Soldiers are often a superstitious and gossipy group. Shit, about a year ago, I asked a Col why his unit was training for and shooting their qual with iron sights, and he conveyed to me that he didn’t trust optics….irons are more reliable. While I agreed with the idea that everyone should be able to shoot irons, the unreliable optics he referred to are ACOGs and Comp M4s, and he was missing an opportunity to zero and train with them.

I’ve also got a friend that has a 24v Cummins in a Dodge that thought a mechanic was trying to scam him because the tech said it had 6 cylinders. He was absolutely convinced that it was a V8, because no way could a 6 cylinder pull so well, and I was like, dude, pop the hood and count your injector lines.

And if I had a dollar for everytime someone professed a misconception about an AK or something something 6.8…..

Point is, when things like this come up, I’ve reason to be skeptical. Of course, I could be wrong, too.

Superstitious and gossipy :) It's accurate, also very resistant to change.

But they generally liked the Krag.

Andy

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Originally Posted by mack7.62

https://www.americanrifleman.org/con...y-performance/

In 1899, a group of Moro tribesmen in the Philippines took umbrage toward a United States occupation force in the southern islands, thereby initiating what became known as the Moro Rebellion. The Moros were fierce fighters, with a reputation of resistance toward any outside rule. Officers in the U.S. force were armed with Colt Model 1892 revolvers chambered in .38 Long Colt, a cartridge that originated the blackpowder era. The load at the time featured a 150-grain lead round-nose bullet launched at 750 f.p.s. using smokeless powder. Muzzle energy was 201 ft.-lbs., about the same energy as a .380 ACP with a 90-grain bullet.

The Moros were reputed to tie themselves up with strips of vegetation from the jungles to prevent excessive bleeding and ingested locally made drugs to block the pain from wounds. Engagements involving the Colt double-action Model 1892 often resulted in the officer being killed or severely wounded by these motivated Moro juramentados. This prompted the War Department to launch the Thompson-LaGarde Tests of 1904. As expected, the rather grisly tests showed the .38 Long Colt significantly lacking in the power needed to stop a determined assailant. The tests determined that what was needed were the ballistics of the .45 Colt in a more compact round. Semi- and full-automatic arms were being developed, and the old .45 Colt would not function in the new pistols.

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This is one of the articles I may have read in the past. The Moros used locally made drugs to block pain. I was curious how they were made.

I have a wood war club from the Pacific Islands that was brought back by my grandfather in the 1940's. It is short in length and not very heavy. Determined people indigenous to the area used the club effectively.

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Originally Posted by 1168

What drugs are you thinking? Most of the fancy ones didn’t exist yet, and the ones that did weren’t exactly performance-enhancing.

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I'd suspect an opioid-based substance. Maybe khat-like? I've also read where they tied off extremities so unless it was a CoM hit they could continue on.

Not to derail the thread, but the Philippine Insurrection (a real insurrection BTW) was brutal. I have a couple books about it. It wasn't just Moros either. The U.S. Army developed it's first COIN strategies during that conflict. The things they did would be verboten nowadays to the point of a stint in Leavenworth. There was a water torture where a funnel was used to forcefully "overindulge" the one being questioned, among other sordid things like revenge attacks against "civilians" (I use that term loosely in a guerrilla war) if Americans had been killed. In fact, reports made their way back stateside and a Congressional investigation was launched. The Congress critters were appalled by what they heard.

To be fair, the Philippine Insurrection is widely considered America's most successful COIN operation. Brutal but it worked. Go figure.

A guess a person could always run 38 Colt and blackpowder 45 Colt spec rounds through a gel test. The issue with "proof" of a round's effectiveness during a war is that all evidence is anecdotal.

My Dad (and millions of Soldiers/Marines) left the Army with a wildly inaccurate view of the .45 ACP. A good hit anywhere in the body would knock the enemy down, etc. I am sure he also "knew" the M1 carbine was a pop gun and only a lucky shot with one would drop the enemy. That was the anecdotal evidence the military presented. He also left with a very high regard for the Garand, but that is based on fact. The M1 is the greatest battle implement ever fielded.

Andy

I always suspected Brownings' 200 gr bullet was a better idea than the Army 230 gr. 200 grs is plenty of weight and gives an extra 100 fps.

That 30 gr of weight per bullet savings would have been great for guys carrying an M1 Thompson and 6 mags, too. (Or whatever the standard load-out was)

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Originally Posted by ABNAK

I'd suspect an opioid-based substance. Maybe khat-like? I've also read where they tied off extremities so unless it was a CoM hit they could continue on.

Not to derail the thread, but the Philippine Insurrection (a real insurrection BTW) was brutal. I have a couple books about it. It wasn't just Moros either. The U.S. Army developed it's first COIN strategies during that conflict. The things they did would be verboten nowadays to the point of a stint in Leavenworth. There was a water torture where a funnel was used to forcefully "overindulge" the one being questioned, among other sordid things like revenge attacks against "civilians" (I use that term loosely in a guerrilla war) if Americans had been killed. In fact, reports made their way back stateside and a Congressional investigation was launched. The Congress critters were appalled by what they heard.

To be fair, the Philippine Insurrection is widely considered America's most successful COIN operation. Brutal but it worked. Go figure.

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Id like to see the source where you read that and who wrote it because Im positive its complete bull$hit. Opioids would make a terrible combat drug since half your attacking force would probably end up asleep before the engagement even begins, look at the modern fentanyl zombies and see how eager they are for a fight. You'd want stimulants for combat, not the opposite effect opiates give. Secondly there are no known medicinal plants that would have even remotely those effecst that grow in the Phillipines. Maybe bitter melon being so nasty it would make you want to stab someone?

People need to take these historical accounts with a huge grain of salt, I mean think about it, go try preemptively tourniqueting your extremities before doing any exercise much less close in melee combat.

I tend to agree with 1168's assessment, people suck at shooting, people have always sucked at shooting historically except for the hardcore small percent that train for martial excellence. The rest will blame their gear, enemies taking drugs or whatever their excuse is for sucking, thats something historical and modern man have in common.

Also to note,soft pure lead bullets were far more devastating from a terminal effects standpoint than much of the modern jacketed stuff so muzzle energy doesnt tell the whole story. Id rather get shot with an M1 garand with M2 ball than .75 cal smoothbore musket shooting a minieball and guess which one has more muzzle energy.

I agree. Opiates, in the pre-synthetic era particularly, are terrible drugs for fighters. In addition to making them prefer to stay home rather than fight (the reason the Japanese and British wanted their enemies to be hooked on them), they also make you die more easily. They cause vasodilation due to the histamine effect, and inhibit compensatory mechanisms. In other words, they cause one to bleed out faster, and reduce the natural ability to handle bleeding.

Imagine fighting people that are both sedated and physiologically fragile.

I’ve had physical altercations with opioid junkies in my civilian career, and it amounted to being careful not to hurt them.

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Originally Posted by vicious_cb

Id like to see the source where you read that and who wrote it because Im positive its complete bull$hit. Opioids would make a terrible combat drug since half your attacking force would probably end up asleep before the engagement even begins, look at the modern fentanyl zombies and see how eager they are for a fight. You'd want stimulants for combat, not the opposite effect opiates give. Secondly there are no known medicinal plants that would have even remotely those effecst that grow in the Phillipines. Maybe bitter melon being so nasty it would make you want to stab someone?
.

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"I'd SUSPECT an opioid-based substance." Note that key word there. Betel nut maybe? I dunno. Seems it wasn't just Moros who were rumored to have taken substances or fought like fanatics (there were several rebel groups we fought over quite a few years).

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Originally Posted by ABNAK

"I'd SUSPECT an opioid-based substance." Note that key word there. Betel nut maybe? I dunno. Seems it wasn't just Moros who were rumored to have taken substances or fought like fanatics (there were several rebel groups we fought over quite a few years).

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Ah gotcha, was curious if it was some first hand account or some historian speculating on this. Seems like the only drug they were on was fanatical Mohammedanism, these types of people of were getting run through with swords since the crusades and still closing in to get a final blow in. I mean you're half right, these people were high on the opiate of the masses :smile:.

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Originally Posted by vicious_cb

Ah gotcha, was curious if it was some first hand account or some historian speculating on this. Seems like the only drug they were on was fanatical Mohammedanism, these types of people of were getting run through with swords since the crusades and still closing in to get a final blow in. I mean you're half right, these people were high on the opiate of the masses :smile:.

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Funny you mention that as I read where they hyped themselves into a frenzy before battle.....akin to someone slapping themselves in the face before a heavy set of squats or bench press! Arenaline be a powerful thang!

I recommend folks interested in obscure conflicts look at the Philippine Insurrection. It was fought against several groups over a 14-year period. The U.S. military lost ~ 4,200 KIA, so the dead and time involved closely matches Afghanistan. The "Banana Wars" in Haiti and Nicaragua are also interesting.

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Originally Posted by Ron3

I was wondering that, too. Performance-enhancing drugs in 1902-1914?

There were pain killers, opiates. But that's gonna kill your religious fervor and homicidal rage that you need to kill the enemy.

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They didn't buy drugs, they made them. Betel nut chewing have been a staple in Asia for ages, along with opium, and others. I'd bet that betel nut was the most common drug in use by the Moros: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betel_nut_chewing

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Originally Posted by anachronism

They didn't buy drugs, they made them. Betel nut chewing have been a staple in Asia for ages, along with opium, and others. I'd bet that betel nut was the most common drug in use by the Moros: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betel_nut_chewing

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Considering you could buy this stuff at your local Chinese herbal medicine store Im not convinced this would be the culprit. You would probably get more effects from chewing dip and chugging a Wild Tiger or Ripped Fuel.

I wonder if those Iraqi insurgents were complaining of Americans not going down because of all those energy drinks they were chugging during the GWOT era, btw a lot of those drinks went out of business because it was revealed they were incredibly unhealthy and or like Ripped Fuel started causing arrhythmias.

Combat stims have been around for ages, I never heard of GIs complaining about SS troops using Pervitin or the Japanese getting drunk on saki before a banzai charge.

I was listening to a C&Arsenal video this morning, and Othias mentioned that the Colt 1896 was said to fall out of time quickly, causing accuracy problems. It does appear rather dainty, especially with the metallurgy of the time.

My Wife is a Filippina and we often go back and forth to visit.
My Wifes Family are Farmers in the Provinces and live way out in the Jungle. When I say Jungle, I mean triple canopy jungle. A lot of places underneath all of that have a lush very fertile loam like soil. It's decades of natural composting.
I want you to consider patrolling through that or even trying to sneak up on someone in that. You can be standing six feet from someone and there is no way you can see them.
And when it's not 90 degree's it's the monsoon rains you have to deal with.
So that's pretty much the Flora, you really dont want to know about the creepy crawly things that will poke you bite you or sting you, that they call the Fauna.
Now that's the 21st Century Philippines, imagine, no roads or a public water system like in the late 19th century.

So here's my thoughts, you could be ambushed nearly anywhere or at anytime you got off of the road.
The Philippino's were using knives, swords and axes with a smattering of captured Spanish and American firearms.
So the fight is going to happen at arms length, which sounds preposterous unless you've experianced that jungle.
So the Pistol rules the roost here.
Bigger and Better Calibers are the rules.

As far as what they were using to get high to fight, I would suggest Mushrooms and / or Alcohol.
They have about 10 million varieties of mushrooms and they're all hunkered down in that fertile compost left behind in the jungle. You can't walk in some places without stepping on them after the monsoon.

The average Filippino guy is about 5'6" two generations ago it was likely 5'2". The farmers even in to their 40's are all guys that look like Bruce Lee when they take their shirts off. I really don't want to be playing tag with any of these guys out in the jungle especially if it's for keeps.

Thanks for the insight.

In addition to what Averageman posted, consider wearing a wool uniform, high boots and carrying issue equipment in that environment. That would make it even tougher on U.S. Troops.

It has nothing to do with the stopping power of a handgun but would make it considerably more difficult to function for our Troops. I would want a close contact edged weapon, such as a machete or cane knife in my kit.

Being ethnically Filipino, Flips seem to love blades and 1911s.

Given a 38, 9mm, or a Colt I prefer the .45.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFile...pg-2958929.JPG

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Originally Posted by sinister

Being ethnically Filipino, Flips seem to love blades and 1911s.

Given a 38, 9mm, or a Colt I prefer the .45.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFile...pg-2958929.JPG

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Strangely enough Doug Marcaida who is the face of mainstream Filipino bladework really likes the Karambit which is Indonesian in origin.

These old Farmers usually have something bigger than a Bowie Knife and smaller than a Machete, tucked in their waistband.
They use those for pests, work and cleaning fish and game. I've never seen so much as a word in anger being passed between these guys, some of that be not wanting to show your ass to the White Guy, but I believe on the whole these are just really peaceful folks.
Having said that, I certainly would never do anything to offend or even joke with someone about certain things, they don't take offence lightly.
The only time I've ever seen some chaos was when alcohol gets passed around, I have drank all over the world, the only place I felt less safe when everyone was drunk was on an Apache Reservation in Arizona.

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Originally Posted by sinister

Being ethnically Filipino, Flips seem to love blades and 1911s.

Given a 38, 9mm, or a Colt I prefer the .45.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFile...pg-2958929.JPG

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Interesting. My instructors were disciples of Dan Inosanto and adept with edged weapons.

To give you and idea of how impenetrable that Jungle is there have been 16 previously unknown Mammals discovered in those Jungles over the last ten years.
Not a snail darter odd little minnow, but full on Mammals.

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Originally Posted by Averageman

To give you and idea of how impenetrable that Jungle is there have been 16 previously unknown Mammals discovered in those Jungles over the last ten years.
Not a snail darter odd little minnow, but full on Mammals.

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I spent 3 years in Panama as a grunt, I can believe it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdyYRTWbD2M

In this youtube video by P&S about the .357, they talk about the .38 Colt not working. And the .30-40 Krag (lol, you missed, dude). And the .45 Colt. Apparently the only thing that worked was buckshot, because dudes sucked terribly at shooting. And another nation’s troops making the same gripes about .577 (lol, you missed, dude) and .455.