One is "barrier blind" but at a .223 velocity. The other is not and runs at 5.56mm NATO pressures.
I know the usual choice is "get both" but if you had to pick one for slightly-more-than-home-defense purposes, which would it be?
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One is "barrier blind" but at a .223 velocity. The other is not and runs at 5.56mm NATO pressures.
I know the usual choice is "get both" but if you had to pick one for slightly-more-than-home-defense purposes, which would it be?
In my view I see the 62 grain Fusion (or Gold Dot) as a superb sub-300 yd house cleaning round. The 77 TMK I view as a superb north of 300 yd round for neighborhood sanitation. Much depends on your platform, short barrels ergo shorter range engagements, and usually non-magnified Red Dot sights. Longer barrels ergo longer range engagements if your skill, barrel and magnified optics allows.
For what it worth I run the 62 grain Gold Dot handloaded to 5.56 pressure, and the 77 TMK in 5.56 pressure handloads or the 77 SMK in the form of IMI factory loads. I also handload the 77 Nosler CC to 5.56 pressures.
The 62's I run in my 16" GPR with Holosun Red Dot, and the 77 grainers in my 18" SPR with Trijicon 2-10x36mm scope.
For practice I run handloaded 68 grain Hornady's in both loaded to just over 223 Max pressure (light 5.56).
IMHO and YMMV
For HD, I would choose Fusion and I have been slightly impressed with its accuracy as well. I think it was another caliber but it shot well.
PB
The Fusion has impressed me in 7.62X39 and M1 carbine, accuracy-wise. Oddly I've never gel-tested in in .223 but we do test Federal Tactical Bonded twice a year and it's very good, I've been wondering if they are the same bullet. We shot some Fusion the other day from a Stag barrel and it was between 1.5 and 2 MOA.
This just in. The two bullets are both bonded 62's but are not the same bullet.
Gold Dot and Fusion share the same bullet.
I’m completely over chasing velocity and NATO pressure ammo. Running with less safety margin, really needing crimped primers, and “fragmentation range” are not as important when we have lower velocity opening bonded options. My opinion.
Unless you need the precision of heavy OTM, barrier blind is recommended for it’s more consistent terminal performance.
I personally run 62gr Gold Dot in my defensive guns, and the accuracy is decent. I like having a bonded barrier blind bullet with reliable expansion. If i was planning on doing most of my shooting past 200-300 yards, i might opt for the 77.
Comes down to barrel length IMHO. I prefer barrier blind, but if you're under 16", a 5.56 TMK load is formidable. If you're 16" or longer, go Fusion MSR.Quote:
Originally Posted by ABNAK
I personally run 5.56 pressure Barnes 70gr TSX (Brown tip) in my 11.5" suppressed shorty, and Hornady 70gr GMX TAP 5.56 pressure in my Knights 16" mod2 SR15. Each pairing is at or below MOA. Both loads are *highly* effective on feral hogs up to 362lbs from my 11.5", in my experience.
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For your use, I would not let the 223 v 556 pressure factor into the decision. Unless you need to reach wayyyy out, the difference wouldn’t be material.Quote:
Originally Posted by ABNAK
I’d stick with the barrier blind choice. If I remember the FBI tests, the TMKs don’t hold together as well as a bonded bulet.
Hey Ned,Quote:
Originally Posted by Ned Christiansen
Do you do factory gel tests with Vista (or any other manufacturer), or do you do them on your own? I have a new range guy I am breaking in and would love to get him to a ballistics gel test demonstration.
That seems backward from most suggestions I've seen: bonded for closer-range guns and SMK/TMK for longer range. Why do you reverse this?Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice
Velocity is king with shorties. The TMK will be going quickly enough to fragment out to 100-125 yds if you get the full-boat 5.56 loading. Within that range, it will be quite deadly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Disciple
Fusion is a solid round; the Fusion bullets use a softer (lower antimony) lead alloy than the Gold Dots. This gives better expansion at further distances but can result in over-expansion in close shots. Gold Dots have a slightly higher expansion velocity, but are GTG from muzzle to MPB range.
My Preference is to get a 5.56 64gr loading for GDSP (if Vista/ATK even makes them any more). Then a 62gr TBBC 5.56 (XM556FBIT3 FBI load). Black Hills 50gr Water Resistant TSX.
Or, my fav, the heavier (and loaded VERY hot) mono-coppers like GMX and TSX 70gr. I haven't yet had either fail to deliver MOA in any of my guns. They bring the goods from coyotes up to big hogs, even from short barrels. They are both moving faster than most 62gr SP loadings from the same barrel length, yet show zero pressure signs (and 100% function) in any of my guns. Frankly they don't even feel as hot as 62gr NATO 5.56 Frontier.
But, I will concede that I have seen some chrono results from others that reflect Fusion MSR to be loaded hotter than standard Fusion if the same bullet weight. Basically, at the top of SAAMI spec for .223 Rem. A stout 5.56 loading will net you another 150-200 fps, all else being equal (bullet weight/density, case cap, etc).
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Well the alternative answer to "get both" is "it depends" is probably not the definite answer you are looking for. For general purpose use bonded all the way. If you are at a place you can take advantage of the increased BC like in an extended range LPVO carbine or SPR then TMK is a good option or conversely inside your house for HD for its devastating terminal ballistics and you don't have a bunch of hardwood furniture bad guys can hide behind. TMK will also penetrate one less interior wall or two depending on construction from some tests so MAYBE a good option if you live in an apartment complex. Its really up to your situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by ABNAK
These bullets are all great performers, but very expensive.
How many rounds are you all keeping on hand of these rounds? And do you practice with them at the range?
I might be guessing wrong, but I think many have a couple hundred of these grest rounds but don’t practice with them because they are expensive. And if you’re not practicing with them, how well do you know how they shoot in your rifle?
And if you do stack em deep, I don’t have the pockets to keep up with that
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I think that may be the answer. They have great terminal ballistics AND are barrier blind. As BufordTJustice mentioned above the Fusion MSR seems to be loaded to the high end of .223 from chrono results I've seen online. From visual examination of the Fusion MSR and the vaunted "FBI Load" (62gr TBBC at 5.56 pressure), since I have both, it would "appear" that the Fusion will be more aerodynamic and therefore more accurate. The "FBI Load" tip is sloppier, with what looks like lead overspill and these are not factory seconds either. I've read where it isn't made necessarily for accuracy but terminal performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by vicious_cb
I've got 400rds of the Fusion MSR and am probably going to buy more. I haven't bought any TMK yet, but do have 1K of the IMI Razor OTMs. The Black Hills 5.56 TMK are $80 for a box of 50, so yeah they're pricey.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbdesigns
The fly in the ointment of these type of questions: where does the Barnes 70gr 5.56 TSX ("brown tip" clone) fall into the pecking order? It is also expensive but slightly less so than the TMK. It too is barrier blind and *should* do well at longer distances.....maybe the best of both worlds?
I also have 300rds of 64gr Gold Dot and 700+ of the "FBI Load" (XM556FBIT3 to be precise).
Wonder why the 62 grn Gold Dots are unobtainium?
The 55 and 75 grain GD are also absent from AmmoSeek.Quote:
Originally Posted by prepare
They have been for quite awhile. I called them and they were unable or unwilling to tell me why or when it would be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Disciple
All our AR/M4's for HD are loaded with 62gr. Fusions.
We also use Fusions in our deer rifles. My wife's 243 Win. 95gr., my son's 270 Win. 130gr., my 280 Rem. 140gr. and 30-06 Spr. 150gr. So far so good.
NYH1.
62gr fusion is my first line serious ammo.Quote:
Originally Posted by ABNAK
Its accurate and terminal performance in tests is great... also has a good rep with hunters.
First round :
- headshots @ 300yds
- czone @ 500yds
- with 11.5"
Can you hit a head on demand at 500yds with your setup?Quote:
Originally Posted by jbdesigns
How often do you practice that or a more demanding scenario?
How often do you practice to less demanding standards?
It is not quite as barrier blind as Fusion. Its high quality ammo, though. I wouldn’t hesitate to load some up. It kills the shit out of mammals, and flies straight. It does go through barriers intact, which I feel is more important than terminal expansion if I have to choose.Quote:
Originally Posted by ABNAK
Re Fusion vs TMK, Vicious CB said what I was going to.
Fusion MSR is in my rifle right now.
As others have said, I also prefer the Fusion as my preferred defense/hunting round. I live in the foothills of Appalachia, so most shots are going to be limited to 300 yards or less due to trees and hills. I do have some 77 gr Razorcore, but haven't zeroed anything for them. The fusions are also usually cheaper, which does play a role in the decision, albeit a small one.
I've trending towards everything you posted. I'm moving from 11.5 to a 14.5 Home D gun and would like to enjoy the reliability of .223 pressure ammo again. (the longer barrel will make up velocity)Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd.K
My only concern is POI shift. I just have to test/confirm, then dedicate a carbine to a 62gr zero if needed.
Pardon my perspective, but what's the fascination and hard-on for barrier-blind bullets?
How often do you practice shooting through walls, glass, large kitchen appliances, furniture, landscaping, and cars? A lot of folks will never practice shooting past 200 yards, ever -- so why match bullets?
If you think it's a big enough / likely / dangerous threat, why not go with a 6.5 or 308?
Seriously -- not meaning to rustle jimmies, but -- why?
For me, just once. That was enough to see how poorly non-bonded bullets do through glass. Shooting through home or auto glass is enough of a possibility for a city dweller to have the better bullet.Quote:
Originally Posted by sinister
If you mean the TMK referred to in the title, it fragments gloriously. It's a long range bullet, but happens to be a good CQB projectile in my opinion.Quote:
A lot of folks will never practice shooting past 200 yards, ever -- so why match bullets?
Some crazies just might to that. But to me, the AR-10 family in both calibers is too heavy and too unreliable for defensive stuff. You want a few hundred yards of distance between yourself and the enemy to allow for malf clearing.Quote:
If you think it's a big enough / likely / dangerous threat, why not go with a 6.5 or 308?
Because I am heavily invested in 5.56/.223, both weapon-wise as well as ammo. I like to think of things in a "worse case scenario". If it's gonna likely be 5.56/.223 that I'm shooting, what gives the best combination of terminal performance AND barrier penetration. It's not always gonna be home defense; maybe if we have a repeat of the "Summer of Love" I may need to rely on more than a Glock in my vehicle should miscreants block roads (I work in a city, live in the sticks) and I have to hoof it. Again, worse case type of thinking. I'd rather not need that performance but still have it, as opposed to needing it and not having it.Quote:
Originally Posted by sinister
As far as .308 goes, I only have two, both M-14 clones, so I'm not seeing myself packing those long-azz biotches in a vehicle. Maybe a nice addition for a bug-out SHTF scenario, but not really a "throw it in the truck" weapon.
Like some of our other esteemed BTDT members, what's your opinion?
For me, it covers all the bases well, jack of all trades. The fusion specifically is accurate enough for any realistic scenario, performs well through anything 556 can defeat and offers good terminal performance. It covers more bases than anything else in a lightweight gun.Quote:
Originally Posted by sinister
Upping the cartrige requires tradeoffs I dont want, fusions tradeoff is money, which isnt an issue for me.
Backup is match grade handloads, I practice to 700 regularly.
Its really not that expensive, relatively. Fusion might be the least expensive not-ball ammo available commercially from a credible and reputable manufacturer.Quote:
Originally Posted by MegademiC
Of course, ball is cheaper, should one choose that route.
We do it as part of a five-day (LE) Patrol Rifle class... been doing them twice a season for over twenty years, our instructor who does it went to Federal for the training on how-to, many years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by SBRSarge
This year, we skipped it for the first 5-day.... not sure about the next one. I hope we don't drop it from the program.
In my experience the POI shift is very minimal but like you said you still have to check and confirm.Quote:
Originally Posted by markm
It's actually a good question, with a simple answer IMHO:Quote:
Originally Posted by sinister
If your attacker has *ANY* tactics at all, they will air-mail you a few rounds and then move to cover/concealment. This utilization of cover/concealment could even be while they are still advancing toward you.
With this in play, and me not having a 2am mental map of the studs in my walls, I want a barrier blind round that will not deviate significantly from its intended trajectory while it may be forced to traverse an intermediate media. Two pieces of drywall should be fine for most ammo, but throw even a glancing strike on a timber or metal stud and the game instantly changes.
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That's probably the best, honest explanantion I've ever had anyone offer.Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice
I'm not against shooting through walls and doors (despite not seeing my target or what's behind it) in a combat role -- which usually starts a "Lack of positive ID / collateral damage" purse-swinging immediate argument drill.
Man, you’re not kidding. Studs and drywall can act strangely, and there are often 2 studs at the edge of a doorway. What’s odd is that I’ve tested shooting through 2x4s and even 4 wide, 5.56 blows through them like paper, but in real life, bullets absolutely sometimes deviate at that edge of a door. Tactically, that can be used similarly to “stacking pillars” on a car, and one can luck out. Its one of the reasons I’m so into Fusion and Gold Dot.Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice
Yeah, imagine in a force-on-force scenario....you start sending little blue sim-pills toward your opponent in a given scenario; they shoot back, move, or both. If they move, it's likely to take advantage of cover/concealment if its near. Which, in a residential structure, is going to be a doorframe, alcove, etc. I.e. some type of corner-reinforcement like a stud, framing, or dooorjamb.Quote:
Originally Posted by sinister
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Yep, and just like with auto glass, angle of incidence plays a HUGE role here. The projectile can be induced to tumble end-over, or can still be spin stabilized enough to tear through, front first. No way to really know. Having to worry about the entire projectile vaporizing within said barrier is an entirely additional set of concerns that barrier blind users don't have to worry about *as much*.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1168
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I think if you were going to "hedge your bets" to cover most scenarios then a good barrier-blind round would be where to place your money. No one bullet is perfect, but sometimes with a little compromise in both the expansion as well as penetration categories you can come up with one that does both quite well.
LE have a more obvious need for windshield penetration, but bullets that do well against windshields also perform well in heavy bone tests.Quote:
Originally Posted by sinister
LE also drives the majority of terminal ballistics testing, so if I want to use something well tested it’s probably barrier blind.
I think you may be equating barrier blind too much with armor piercing. It’s more about consistent performance, even if something gets in the way.
Expanding bullets generally expand more consistently than fragmenting bullets fragment. Especially at the lower end of the size that can fragment and still meet penetration requirements, like 5.56 sized.
If over penetration is a concern then a non barrier blind design may be what you want.