SF types can get away with it, but regular forces allowed, no way.
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I didn't think so, I do believe that they were told they could. Then again their unit doesn't seem to squared away.
I got both, who cares, both have advantages and disadvantages over the other
GI mags are not made of steel. They are made out of alluminum. I have plenty of good GI mags in addition to plenty of P mags, lancers etc. However with GI mags you can have a bad mag and not even know it. At least when a P mag takes a dump its obvious to the naked eye.
Pat
My understanding for the block on ordering the PMAGs through PBUSE was that they were highly pilfer-able. Instead of adding them to any form of accountability at the Company and BN level, Big Army just decided to say (NO MORE).
We ordered about 1000 while in Afghanistan. I'm sure there are maybe around 10-20 still left in the Company Arm's room right now.
I've only ever used GI mags.
Because there are no pre-ban pmags.
FML
LOL. That was pretty funny. I'm in a ban state also, but my situation is nowhere near as dire. When I moved to NY I gave 30 or so PMAG's to my buddy in Florida and got ~40 brand new pre-ban USGI type magazines in return. Not sure what I'm going to do when they shit the bed. I do my best to baby them but shit happens. :eek:
I have never had any major issues with usgi mags. I ran my training mags pretty hard always keeping them seperate. Whenever they went bad (always after a lot of use), they went in the trash.
I have no idea why I went to pmags since I was never too big on the magpul brand but I did. I switched away from a perfectly good mags to try pmags. I'm back to usgi and haven't regretted it.
Other than issues others have pointed out, I am not a fan of the ribbing and thickness as it creates a lot of friction in double mag pouches. Also, it is a lot easier to insert usgi mags into the magazine well than pmags (for me at least). Pmags catch a bit more if placement isn't near perfect so I am not as consistent with them (not a huge issue).
During my time in the Army I did experience problems with the metal issued mags. Then again these were mostly old issue 20 rd mags, maybe left over from NAM, I don't know. One thing I like about PMags is that they will flex a little and go back to their original shape. Sometimes the metal mags when sat on, laided on, etc. Will bend on not go back to their original shape. This is when I witnessed feeding issues. This mostly occurred when we got a cherry straight out of AIT, who would wear his LBV high and with all the mags directly over the front of his chest. So when he hit the deck, he was landing on his mags. Not smart. The post earlier about the PMags failing at -60F, how many Taliban do you see running around the North pole. I would be concerned with the M-16/M-4 cycling at that temp with the break free oil anyway (maybe militec that is issued). I think mags are like anything else, you take care of them, they will take care of you.
The singular advantage I'd give to poly mags is that one can visibly see when the feed lips are out of spec (because they ****ing crack first). However, one has to inspect them in the first place to notice it anyhow I suppose.... I'd guess that less than 1 in 10 do this, even in working BN's...
This is just a silly argument. The fact that two SME's on this board are advocating usgi mags should be a clue. I personally know several sf dudes who reverted back to or never left usgi mags in the first place and feel the same way.
A regular maintainance schedule and seperation of training mags make usgi mags as reliable as the gun firing them. There are a lot of things that can go bust on an AR but the professional changes out springs, pins, extractors, ejectors, etc ... on a schedule to prevent failures in the field. Magazines are no different. Maintain them and they'll work when you need them to.
P.S. By maintainane on magazines I mean checking them for obvious damage, wiping mud and other crap off, function testing when possible, and relegating to training or the trash can those magazines have been seeing heavy use (preferably prior to failure). I do NOT mean disassembling them.
I frankly don't know what basis the two SME's on this board have for their decision. What I do know is based on personal experience from being a shooter, LEO, firearms instructor and competator. P mags have served me better overall than USGI mags have. (not saying USGI mags are junk I own a lot still) Others may disagree. If a SME on the forum tells me something that is contrary to my personal experience I am still going to go with my personal experience. Also I am sure you will find conflicting opinions among SME's as well.
Pat
Just throwing this out there:
To see if a magazine is good or not as part of a routine preventative maintenance schedule, load 15 rounds and give the magazine a good slap from the bottom. If rounds come out, ditch the magazine. You can also use this gauge:
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=4...FEED-LIP-GAUGE
Staying proactive will make the gradual / not easily noticeable with the naked eye damage to USGI magazines a non-issue.
Thanks for the report. How cold was it when they cracked if you don't mind me asking?Quote:
I'm not surprised: I've had the feed lips on Pmags crack in cold weather and not just once. I'm not shit canning my Pmags any time soon but my serious-use mags are USGI with the tan followers or Magpul followers.
To each their own, I have no problem with folks who use pmags :). I just don't agree with your reasoning since proper maintenance makes the point moot in my opinion. I will add that most aluminium mags I have seen fail were the old, sometimes worn the hell out, black follower usgi's and low quality aluminium mags. I rarely see malfunctions with the green or tan follower usgi's, even the ones not well maintained.
And I'll let the SME's speak for themselves but the majority sf guys I know and have worked with don't go with the "the new thing" unless it is thoroughly tested (often by themselves) AND represents significant improvement in capability. The pmags don't meet this threshold for a lot of these dudes (I personally believe pmags have a couple of drawbacks rather than adding to capability). That said, of course every one has their own opinions and there are certainly SME's who prefer pmags.
I am wondering the context surrounding the failures you have observed and experienced from usgi mags. Are we talking about training mags? Used mags issued for firearms training? Green or tan follower usgi's? I assume most of these failures occurred in training or gaming since I think it's safe to assume that you don't shoot that much in an operational context.
If you maintain your magazines, I don't see why you are having so many issues with usgi mags. If you don't mind, would you explain some context surrounding the failures you have witnessed? I am honestly not being an ass, this is more for my education.
I've had newer (Okay) magazines fail on me.
Limited round count through the mags (ran through 4 or 5 times at the most) and in training, several simply dumped the base plate and the guts spewed all over the ground.
This was when I was doing a side by side comparison of Pmags to USGI under what I consider difficult conditions (active gravel pit).
I had bought 2 Pmags to test and the rest in my gear were the virtually new Okay mags I had bought during the ban years to be my "go to" mags. I had run the OK mags through three times to ensure that they worked properly then stored them until the ban passed.
Once Pmags were developed, I was leery due to my previous experiences with thermolds and orlites so I only bought two for testing.
Like I said, several USGI mags took a shit on me in less then half a day and the Pmags took the abuse and kept going.
After that I packed away all of my USGI mags into ammo cans for future "what-ifs" and have run nothing but Pmags for awhile now with zero issues or complaints. Including a fair amount of FA fire, training sessions, etc. Rain, snow, sleet, hail, hot weather, cold weather, FA, suppressed, training, dirt shooting (what little i do), being dropped in mud, kicked around, accidentally stepped on while in the gravel pit, etc. etc. etc.
My personal experience, not the name on the side, keeps me squarely in the Pmag camp for the time being.
I was recently in A'stan and I saw numerous U.S and some NATO personnel using PMAG's.
I personally know U.S military personnel who have carried PMAG's into combat. If it were up to me I would take PMAG's any day over aluminum. The pros and cons are already well known.
I find PMAG's much easier to field strip and maintain.
As for the personal weapons thing....I do in fact know a few guys that brought their own uppers into theater and used them. In one case it was against the advice of someone who had some misgivings about the reliability of said upper.
I'm curious how many people would listen to TACOM about their approved lube too?
We're lucky that we have options between reliable magazines instead of options between unreliable magazines.
Although it does get cold out in RC East probably not TB, but there may be a concern with NORKs since there is a history of fighting them in extreme cold. I would be more concerned with the insect repellent and cold weather lube (That the LAW stuff mentioned) issues. Down in the green zone of the Helmand at least I experience quite a bit of bugs
Problem is, that there are so many Pmags in Theater and in the system, it's not even funny. I see more Pmags carried by Soldiers and Marines, where I'm based, as well as the FOBs I fly into, than USGI type mags (Which appear to be well worn, with a gold hue). As others have stated, to this day, there is still no mandated inspection in place for replacing Mags (and Extractors). If armorers are doing so, they are few and far between. IMHO, any unit deploying should have brand new mags issued and extractors replaced. Returning units to CONUS should have those mags inspected, then turned in to be used as training mags only.
I have a healthy dose of both Pmags (100+) and USGI type (100+ of D&H & NHMTG), but have been buying the NHMTG mags with Magpul followers since they are so cheap these days. Out of all the Pmags I've owned, I've had only 3 fail so far, but they were several years old and well used, so I felt I got my money's worth. As they fail from normal personal and class usage, they will be replaced with NHMTGs.
It depends on the state and the policy for the use of personally owned weapons. My state back home does not allow it, but I ran into a Wisconsin NG unit in Afghanistan that allowed their unit to use their personal AR 15 upper receivers instead of their issued Colt uppers. I spoke to my company First Sergeant and he said it is common that NG units are allowed to use their upper receivers or complete rifles. I asked why and he said he was not sure, but one reason could be they had more trigger time on a personal weapon then an issued rifle that is simple not fired very often if at all.
If OPCON to a combantant commander, his rules are in effect.
It doesn't matter what your state's policy is, when activated you are under Title X, and what your state says means absolutely nothing.