I'm probably the last person to be considered a technical resource, but I have to ask, why the bloody hell would you NOT want to stake it?
to be obstinate and difficult and to simply prove that you were right? are you my wife posting incognito???
Printable View
I'm probably the last person to be considered a technical resource, but I have to ask, why the bloody hell would you NOT want to stake it?
to be obstinate and difficult and to simply prove that you were right? are you my wife posting incognito???
And that was my only point in bringing up this topic in the first place. I would guess that a high percentage of people replace the existing stock out, or add a sling adapter plate, and so need to unstake it anyways. I agree that they should be staked, but I just never understood why it would be a quality indicator since half of them are going to be unstaked anyways. That was the only point I was making.
Hopefully that question was answered to your satisfaction.
Those mundane things would still come into question for some. Hell I'm not there watching the thing get made. How do YOU really know?
Yes track records are great and a good indicator. Anyone notice the distinct lack of factory colt, bushmaster etc major manufacturer employees are on this site? I'd love to hear what they have to say. But then again, not many would say they work
for a crap company and everyone wants to be the best. Oh well, let the debate continue.
One thing is for sure, many of the guys out there getting real work done with their rifles aren't half as anal about their weapons as most here are. Just how it is and a simple observation. Most of the real fighters don't hand pick what they get to use. They get it isssued, then perform to the best of their ability and make due. Not complain about non MPI tested barrels and a lack of stacking on their castle nut.
I'm going with yugo on this one.
Could it be looked into as a "what if" for lack of quality...........yep
Could it be because they figure someone will just work on it.....yep
Ask a grunt what staking a castle nut means. 99.9% will look at you like your crazy with no clue.
Ask a LE officer what staking a castle nut means, same response.
I'm not even going to get into how a buddy just sold a dpms rifle for 1150 and how all the other officers in the dept were
falling all over themselves to get this "quality" rifle. I won't mention what he paid for it. hahahah
Let's say for the sake of argument that 50% of all AR purchasers replace their endplate or change the configuration somehow that requires removal of the castle nut. The manufacturers who ship and don't stake could at a minimum tell the consumer "please notice that the castle nut and end plate on your carbine has not been stake. This is to facilitate your ability to swap certain items. Should you choose not to we recommend that you seek out a qualified person to properly stake it."
Then again we have no idea what the real numbers are of those who remove their end plate/ castle nut so the manufacturer shouldn't assume and should do it from the get go.
That's not a real argument. Most "real" gunfighters have already had someone who in your words is anal, spec out their gun to include staked castle nuts and all the testing on bolts and barrels. Most "real" gunfighters have an armorer to look over their guns for them and make sure they are up to snuff. If they're lacking those things, then they'd be better served to be anal about their weapons.
Guess you haven't been overseas recently nor worked any non military gigs in other lands. Because that certainly is not nearly always the case.
While I definitely agree that anyone who uses a rifle for serious work should be educated I was merely pointing out that most who do still are very much lacking in the knowledge department. This includes people up to and including those you'd consider to be "Tier 1" operators.
No one here has to like or agree with it. This is a personal observation.
As always it comes down to requirements.
If its a range toy/plinker on which you like to swap the latest crap that catches your fancy, then staking or loctiting is a pain in the butt. Conversely system "failure" has no consequences.
If your life depends on it and you are beating on it every day, then staking is a secure, easily visually confirmed way of knowing that everything will stay together.
Either way, I think people get a bit too crazed over this kind of thing.
Trunkmonkey,
I'll agree with you to certain point. Most of the shooters aren't as well versed in ther finer aspects of their kit. This is why it is critical to have knowledgeable people in the logistics area and an armorer who knows what he is doing.
We are using BM's and of course I know the issues with them. So I mitigate that by ensuring that we have extra bolts, proper extractors spring and inserts, etc..etc...
You have to be able to sell to the higher ups why a particular piece of kit is good or bad and though the initial cost will be more, in the long run money will be saved by less parts breakage, wear and tear, etc....
I always attempt to present facts and/or personal experience when it comes to the selection of certain items. But, ultimately the bean counters have the final say.
The bottom line is stake what needs to be staked and if you dont want to shut up.
That's because these companies don't want to field complaints from people asking why their rifles are "all dinged up". Some people who don't know any better would be pissed that someone took a punch to their endplate.
Especially the RRA crowd who are always going on and on and on about how great the "fit and finish" is.
That said - it WOULD be nice to have the option from more places to get rifles without stocks so you can put your own stock on!
I don't really think it looks dinged up either, but just me. It's just a dimple in one or two places depending on how many times the builder likes to get their stake on.
I look at my stake this way
RARE - not staked
Med Well - Staked once
Well Done - Staked twice
So how do you like your stake?
Rob,
Thanks for your efforts. It's a real service to the community.
But as an engineer myself, I'm gonna take ya task a bit.
If you have Company A, which has a quality procedure they are supposed to follow and yet it doesn't happen and you have Company B which simply doesn't perform the quality procedure by policy, which one has the QA problem?
Answer: Both of them.
If you don't have a QA process to ensure your standards are met, you're only a little better off than the company that doesn't have the standards at all. Neither company would pass a Capability Maturity Model audit.
Having said that, I get what your saying. And I don't think many folks would confuse a KAC rifle with a Bushmaster. And I shoot a Bushmaster (among other things).
Again, thanks for your efforts. I've managed to upgrade my Bushy significantly thanks to your chart (for very little money).
Actually, I would argue that only the company that let the product out the door without something that was supposed to happen being done has the QA problem. The company that doesn't do it, ever, is right on track to produce their specified half-assed product. :D
But they both did so, right? Only one did it deliberately, and one didn't have the processes in place to make sure it was done. QA is almost useless if applied inconsistently.
But it's just my engineering nerd coming through. I agree with you that on something THIS basic, it's a no-brainer. And my next gun with be an LMT. :)
Not staking a castle nut can be simply part of procedure and can have nothing to do with the rest of the product. Assuming that the rest is half assed is some peoples own problem.
I'll just agree to say that if it isn't done they should have it in the manual.
By the way, I just picked up a 6920. But I don't suppose I'll get any lip about that round these parts.
I bought two LMT MRPs this year. One had the castle nut staked, the other did not. I left the SOPMOD on the staked one and put an A2 with a monster man grip on the other (I live in California)
When I swapped out my rifle's A2 stock for a carbine buffer tube several years ago, I used blue loctite. Recently I noticed that the castle nut had worked loose! So apparently blue loctite doesn't get the job done! (or I screwed it up - I put a couple drops on the threads) I wanted to use a proper torque wrench too but couldn't figure out how to get a reading using a castle nut wrench.
Coincidentally, I was about to buy a sling mount plate to replace the end plate anyway.
http://www.danieldefense.com/img/pro...7658b09f24.jpg
Can someone please explain the proper way to stake it once I swap out the end plate?
Ah, I just found this picture:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y82.../starboard.jpg
I have a number of regular nail sets and awls, can I use one of them, how hard should I hammer on the endplate? On the other hand, the Harbor Freight spring loaded center punch shown before is just $4 (and just 15 min from my house), so easy enough for me to buy one -- with one of those do you just retract the punch and hit a release, and is that enough pressure to deform the plate sufficiently (it's made of aluminum)?
And then later if you ever have to remove it, I gather you just muscle it off? (or just bang on the deformation to push it back down?)
Oh, while I'm at it, I never put moly on the buffer tube's threads either, should I take the opportunity to do so? Is the anti-seize compound that I use for auto maintenance kinda the same thing? If not, what should I go out to buy?
Thanks all!
No release. You just push down on the handle. It's spring loaded and will retract into the handle until a certain point, then it 'pops' back out with the stored energy. Can't help ya much with the other questions. Just getting into this rifle thing, but I've gone through a couple of those HF punches over the years building and fabbing stuff for racecars... Cant beat 'em for $4, or $2 if you go during their "sidewalk sales"!:D
Is the correct torque 40+/-2 IN-lbs or 40+/-2 FT-lbs??? It do make a difference.
I suspect the latter, but what do I know?
And, what's the best way to secure the receiver when you're doing this?
I posted a question about staking in the KAC forum. Here is their response. Link Not what I expected but I guess we will agree to disagree on this one...
I've never had a problem with guns that I loctited and torqued.
I've staked some too - and for guns that I swap stocks on, I don't do much more than torque them on - I've had that come back to bite me, as I forgot it was not staked and had them back off during training.
I would say that ofr 99.9% of us, either using loctite or staking, after proper torquing will suffice. If I was jumping or otherwise using the carbien roughly I would want it staked.
They are most likely correct in that a properly torqued castle nut is not going to go anywhere. The problem is that I would trust VERY few companies to do this right and would generally error on the side of caution and stake the castle nut.
Blue loctite on a RE is most likely fine (if you had to remove it).
Red loctite on a RE is NOT fine.
C4
P.S. Gasket sealant is not good either (never get if off...)
I will always take a mechanical attachment over a chemical attachment, and hardly consider staking dicking anything up.
Rob,
If you read the thread from the begining you will see that I've been an advocate of Loctite in general. Its great stuff.
But staking it has 2 differentiating benefits:
1) it secures the nut to the end plate, not to the buffer tube. As the designers intended.
2) in an armory environment, staking allows for visual confirmation that the assembly is secure and will not come apart. (Just like safety wiring on aircraft) Loctite does not.
So staking isnt better because its mechanical. Its better because it puts the derotation forces into the correct component (the end plate, not the buffer tube) and because its visually confirmable.
There is loctite all around you, keeping you safe in places you dont even realize. At keeping threaded connectors together Loctite can be FAR more secure than staking. But for the reasons above, it is not prefered in this application.
None of which is contrary to what I posted.
Here's the thing. Most people that are stuck on the Locktite for the castle nut are stuck there for the wrong reasons. They bought some lesser quality carbine, and as part of their need to validate their purchase (and their selection process and knowledgebase) they start defending the use of Locktite because to acknowledge that it's less than ideal or, to a lesser degree, not to "milspec" somehow besmirches their manhood.
As I always say, I really don't care what people do with their own personal possessions. Put 87 octane in your Corvette, run your Range Rover on retreads, buy used range balls to whack around with your Great Big Bertha, try to run a marathon in a pair of Chuck Taylors, whatever. But, someone starts asking for advice or what other people think, and then turns out to only wants to be validated not actually advised...
I have seen castle nuts come loose. I have talked to the people that have had them come loose, and I have had some of them tell me they have Locktite on them. I don't know if it's true or not as I usually don't really care much past the point that I ask if they want help and they in turn get snippy and childish and I walk away. However, to date I haven't personally seen a staked castle nut come loose. The Colts I buy are staked, AFAIK the "milspec" calls for them to be staked, and it's always worked well for me and for everyone else I've seen stake them. I will continue to stake mine and anyone else that will let me stake theirs, and advocate it as a much better solution than putting glue on it. Whether people choose to take that advice, or let me work on their guns, is entirely up to them.